is all of that info in the public domain nasaroc? Where did you hear it?
As I have said before, if there is evidence of offences (including being drunk in public) then they can (and should) be delt with as such.
Banning/restricting drinking in public is not going to stop/deter drug abuse is it?
Street drinking survey
No this information isn't in the public domain although you could say that it is now!
All I am trying to show is that the police are clear that there is a problem and want extra powers to deal with it. They are in a much better position than many who post on this subject claiming that steet drinkers are "no real problem". Let's support our police rather than trying to second guess them.
Of course banning or restricting street drinking is going to deter and lower drug abuse in the high street - although we will never stop drug abuse entirely. There is a clear and well-proven overlap between alcohol abuse and drug abuse especially amongst street drinkers - and clear evidence from the police that this group is dealing and using drugs.
Remove the street drinking and you lower the drug abuse.
All I am trying to show is that the police are clear that there is a problem and want extra powers to deal with it. They are in a much better position than many who post on this subject claiming that steet drinkers are "no real problem". Let's support our police rather than trying to second guess them.
Of course banning or restricting street drinking is going to deter and lower drug abuse in the high street - although we will never stop drug abuse entirely. There is a clear and well-proven overlap between alcohol abuse and drug abuse especially amongst street drinkers - and clear evidence from the police that this group is dealing and using drugs.
Remove the street drinking and you lower the drug abuse.
An what authority precisely do you have to release this information if it's not public domain?nasaroc wrote:No this information isn't in the public domain although you could say that it is now!
Again, where have they published this information?All I am trying to show is that the police are clear that there is a problem
I'm not really doing any second guessing. I'm actually quite au fait with police priorities and procedures. Although, admittedly, not the specific objectives of the Sydenham SNT.They are in a much better position than many who post on this subject claiming that steet drinkers are "no real problem". Let's support our police rather than trying to second guess them.
Yes, and move them elsewhereOf course banning or restricting street drinking is going to deter and lower drug abuse in the high street
Out of sight out of mind eh 
I’ve googled street drinking and drug abuse and have come up with a few interesting and imformative arguments from the experts.
An exploration of street drinking in Drumchapel, scotland by Alaistair J Ross, Derek Heim, Kirsty flatley, John B Davies and Megan Sudbery. Published by Health Education Research Vol20, no3 Oxford Univeristy Press, copyright. 2004.
This paper describes a survey undertaken to contribute to a health needs assessment of persistant street drinkers and in addtion perceived threats to general community safety and addressing problems associated with street drinking, it interviews street drinkers, members of the public, local businesses and local service providers.
It throws up some intersting facts, please read it.
I quote ’ Resentment of street drinking groups, without evidence to substantiate a real threat to public safety, has been reported ( Shimwell 1999). Previously’
Alcohol Concern produce a factsheet (number 19) on street drinking. This came up as result number 2 in a google search. Please read this, it is really informative.
It highlights the need for street drinkers to access services such as housing, health and substance misuse services. Other reports state that street drinkers have inadequate knowledge of substance missuse services and state that in surveys some have said they would like to cut down/ stop.
Are any substance misuse teams going to the next assembly meeting? As well as the police maybe the probabtion service could offer some solutions?
Before concluding the alcohol concern factsheet, says, in relations to tackling street drinking:_
‘local bye laws while attempting to deal with the range of community safety initiatives, can have a damaging affect on street drinkers... and an additional outcome is that bye-laws can go on to result in criminalisation of this vulnerable and marginalized group which deepens their social exclusion (Shenker 1998)’.
The Conclusion
‘Street drinkers are some of the most vulnerable people in our society. They are often homeless or in temporary accomodation, unemployed, at risk of attack and may have mental health problems as well as being alcohol dependantand in many cases alcohol problems have contributed to their being on the streets in the first place.
Better support is needed for those people who end up on the streets, particuarly young people leaving home for the first time. Any strategy to reduce street drinking must address health, housing and social problems that street drinkers face as well as their drinking. Services should be better coordinated so that ‘the homeless persistant street drinker may access a continuum of care with the aim of providing the drinker with a seamless progression from the streets to stable accomodation.’ ( Mental health Foundation 1996.
I Don’t think pouring peoples alcohol away and moving them on to other areas will achieve this. This would be a short sighted approach which may result in people congregating in others areas which are less able to be policed effectively. The result may be in ‘no-go areas’ , propably in poorer areas of the borough where the residents are less able to round up local police support to move them on/ police them.
Nasaroc wrote “For those who wish to protect groups such as these, or offer "creative ways" of dealing with the problem, why not offer your front garden or those of your neighbours so that the group can have a safe environment in which to carry on their activities?”
I feel you have touched on all our fears here, by sarcastically suggesting moving this group on to a safer environment, you have in fact hit the nail on the head. This is what would happen if this initiative where introduced.
So by Moving the group from one area ,the question is where will the next area be??
We have no control of that.
An exploration of street drinking in Drumchapel, scotland by Alaistair J Ross, Derek Heim, Kirsty flatley, John B Davies and Megan Sudbery. Published by Health Education Research Vol20, no3 Oxford Univeristy Press, copyright. 2004.
This paper describes a survey undertaken to contribute to a health needs assessment of persistant street drinkers and in addtion perceived threats to general community safety and addressing problems associated with street drinking, it interviews street drinkers, members of the public, local businesses and local service providers.
It throws up some intersting facts, please read it.
I quote ’ Resentment of street drinking groups, without evidence to substantiate a real threat to public safety, has been reported ( Shimwell 1999). Previously’
Alcohol Concern produce a factsheet (number 19) on street drinking. This came up as result number 2 in a google search. Please read this, it is really informative.
It highlights the need for street drinkers to access services such as housing, health and substance misuse services. Other reports state that street drinkers have inadequate knowledge of substance missuse services and state that in surveys some have said they would like to cut down/ stop.
Are any substance misuse teams going to the next assembly meeting? As well as the police maybe the probabtion service could offer some solutions?
Before concluding the alcohol concern factsheet, says, in relations to tackling street drinking:_
‘local bye laws while attempting to deal with the range of community safety initiatives, can have a damaging affect on street drinkers... and an additional outcome is that bye-laws can go on to result in criminalisation of this vulnerable and marginalized group which deepens their social exclusion (Shenker 1998)’.
The Conclusion
‘Street drinkers are some of the most vulnerable people in our society. They are often homeless or in temporary accomodation, unemployed, at risk of attack and may have mental health problems as well as being alcohol dependantand in many cases alcohol problems have contributed to their being on the streets in the first place.
Better support is needed for those people who end up on the streets, particuarly young people leaving home for the first time. Any strategy to reduce street drinking must address health, housing and social problems that street drinkers face as well as their drinking. Services should be better coordinated so that ‘the homeless persistant street drinker may access a continuum of care with the aim of providing the drinker with a seamless progression from the streets to stable accomodation.’ ( Mental health Foundation 1996.
I Don’t think pouring peoples alcohol away and moving them on to other areas will achieve this. This would be a short sighted approach which may result in people congregating in others areas which are less able to be policed effectively. The result may be in ‘no-go areas’ , propably in poorer areas of the borough where the residents are less able to round up local police support to move them on/ police them.
Nasaroc wrote “For those who wish to protect groups such as these, or offer "creative ways" of dealing with the problem, why not offer your front garden or those of your neighbours so that the group can have a safe environment in which to carry on their activities?”
I feel you have touched on all our fears here, by sarcastically suggesting moving this group on to a safer environment, you have in fact hit the nail on the head. This is what would happen if this initiative where introduced.
So by Moving the group from one area ,the question is where will the next area be??
We have no control of that.
Donk
The bench was intended for elderly or infirmed to take a short break whilst shopping not for all day drinkers from Hither Green.
Removing the bench may indeed be the only answer and as at present the elderly and infirmed cannot use they would not be any worse of.
Why are the all day drinkers so selfish and how do they get the finance for this habit.
The bench was intended for elderly or infirmed to take a short break whilst shopping not for all day drinkers from Hither Green.
Removing the bench may indeed be the only answer and as at present the elderly and infirmed cannot use they would not be any worse of.
Why are the all day drinkers so selfish and how do they get the finance for this habit.
So how will keeping street drinker on our high street actually “cure” them or help them to lead better lives?
Street drinkers have problems with alcohol and drug abuse. The place they are getting alcohol and drugs is here in SE26.
The last thing you need with someone who has an abuse problem is to let them loose in an area where their problems are maintained.
You also describe the need to keep street drinkers in SE26 because if they are driven away we “might not know where they will end up.”
In many of the drink and drug rehabilitation programmes provided by the state for such a purpose perhaps?
Alcohol and drug abusers should be rehabilitated and cared for. But not on our streets.
Street drinkers have problems with alcohol and drug abuse. The place they are getting alcohol and drugs is here in SE26.
The last thing you need with someone who has an abuse problem is to let them loose in an area where their problems are maintained.
You also describe the need to keep street drinkers in SE26 because if they are driven away we “might not know where they will end up.”
In many of the drink and drug rehabilitation programmes provided by the state for such a purpose perhaps?
Alcohol and drug abusers should be rehabilitated and cared for. But not on our streets.
"In many of the drink and drug rehabilitation programmes provided by the state for such a purpose perhaps?"
The number of rehab places is woefully inadequate....there are of course private rehabs but at a cost that puts them out of the reach of your average drink/drugs abuser.
Its a big problem and not as easy to 'cure' as people may think.
The number of rehab places is woefully inadequate....there are of course private rehabs but at a cost that puts them out of the reach of your average drink/drugs abuser.
Its a big problem and not as easy to 'cure' as people may think.
Of course, curing any addiction is extremely difficult.
But what we are discussing here is whether maintaining drink and drug abuse on our high street is any solution to the problem.
In the 1990s, the streets of London were filled each night with an ever- growing band of people sleeping rough in door ways. The government dealt with this problem by insisting that the rough sleepers were moved on by police to hostels - in the face of a barrage of opposition from parts of the community who suggested that the rough sleepers should stay exactly where they were.
The result - many more rough sleepers were brought back into settled society with a future they could look forward to. And normal civic and commercial life for the vast majority of their fellow citizens could resume.
By keeping drink and drug addicts on the street you are compounding their problems, not helping them.
But what we are discussing here is whether maintaining drink and drug abuse on our high street is any solution to the problem.
In the 1990s, the streets of London were filled each night with an ever- growing band of people sleeping rough in door ways. The government dealt with this problem by insisting that the rough sleepers were moved on by police to hostels - in the face of a barrage of opposition from parts of the community who suggested that the rough sleepers should stay exactly where they were.
The result - many more rough sleepers were brought back into settled society with a future they could look forward to. And normal civic and commercial life for the vast majority of their fellow citizens could resume.
By keeping drink and drug addicts on the street you are compounding their problems, not helping them.
No, but marginalising them will make them will make them worse...nasaroc wrote:So how will keeping street drinker on our high street actually “cure” them or help them to lead better lives?
So you say. And you also say that that's public knowledge....but you still havn't said where you got permission to release that information. Allegations of crime and criminal activity are serious matters....Street drinkers have problems with alcohol and drug abuse. The place they are getting alcohol and drugs is here in SE26.
as has been said, where are these programmes with the spaces for these people?In many of the drink and drug rehabilitation programmes provided by the state for such a purpose perhaps?
by the way, when is the sydenham assembly meeting discussing this issue?
Nasaroc, I get the distinct impression you are a bit of a NIMBY....there are far more dangerous and important things in life. Why not campaign against cars? Far people people are killed by them directly and indirectly and they contribute far more damage to our environment, both aesthetically and pollution-wise.
Very much in favour of car control and I spend much of my time attempting to do so locally. Please read my postings on STF. I am not a NIMBY. I am driven by the desire to improve our high street and community.
I have spent time trying to discover as much as I can about the issue of street drinking locally. I have raised this directly with local councillors, talked to the Sydenham Traders organisation, with local police and with members of the police panel. The issue has been discussed fully in the Sydenham Assembly.
Three weeks ago I was fortunate to attend a meeting at Lewisham Council with other members of the Sydenham Assembly Coordinators Group where we were able to discuss this precise issue in detail with senior Lewisham Officers, the local Chief Inspector of Police, the head of Sydenham community police and the Chair of the Police Panel.
I'm not claiming that I am the only person who has done this research. But I am confident that in none of the above meetings has anyone (and I mean anyone) not wanted to achieve a situation where we can deter street drinking and the associated drug abuse in Sydenham Road.
I am hopeful that we can now proceed to provide that deterrent.
I have spent time trying to discover as much as I can about the issue of street drinking locally. I have raised this directly with local councillors, talked to the Sydenham Traders organisation, with local police and with members of the police panel. The issue has been discussed fully in the Sydenham Assembly.
Three weeks ago I was fortunate to attend a meeting at Lewisham Council with other members of the Sydenham Assembly Coordinators Group where we were able to discuss this precise issue in detail with senior Lewisham Officers, the local Chief Inspector of Police, the head of Sydenham community police and the Chair of the Police Panel.
I'm not claiming that I am the only person who has done this research. But I am confident that in none of the above meetings has anyone (and I mean anyone) not wanted to achieve a situation where we can deter street drinking and the associated drug abuse in Sydenham Road.
I am hopeful that we can now proceed to provide that deterrent.
Contrary to the views put forward by many on this forum, street drinkers and drug abusers are not just “abandoned” to the streets. There is a network of drop-in centres and day care centres which are open to deal with problems such as these throughout the borough.
In fact such a centre is open just down the road – in Perry Hill in a beautifully restored old building. There is no reason why our local street drinkers should not go there when they are moved from our high street. In fact, they are quite able to go there now if they wish.
Centres such as these obviously don’t want their details put forward on a public forum such as this. But I have talked to the organiser and he is always looking for volunteers to help. So step forward Bag Lady and Bensonby. After lecturing us passionately on how “we” should care for street drinkers, you surely won’t mind giving up a bit of time to turn your words into action.
If you PM me or Admin, I can set up a meeting between us and the organiser.
Very practical way to back up your views I’d have thought. And to show others locally that you are not just all words. I’ll look forward to hearing from you and reporting back to the forum on how you’re settling into your new roles.
In fact such a centre is open just down the road – in Perry Hill in a beautifully restored old building. There is no reason why our local street drinkers should not go there when they are moved from our high street. In fact, they are quite able to go there now if they wish.
Centres such as these obviously don’t want their details put forward on a public forum such as this. But I have talked to the organiser and he is always looking for volunteers to help. So step forward Bag Lady and Bensonby. After lecturing us passionately on how “we” should care for street drinkers, you surely won’t mind giving up a bit of time to turn your words into action.
If you PM me or Admin, I can set up a meeting between us and the organiser.
Very practical way to back up your views I’d have thought. And to show others locally that you are not just all words. I’ll look forward to hearing from you and reporting back to the forum on how you’re settling into your new roles.
Hi Nasaroc,
Thank you for your kind invite. i have pm'd you.
I would appreciate you letting me know when the assembly meeting is?
I look forward to continued debate on this. Although read the other day that this is appears to be a London wide resolution to street drinking. I'm sure there will be interesting reports on the outcome of this initiative.
Bag lady
Thank you for your kind invite. i have pm'd you.
I would appreciate you letting me know when the assembly meeting is?
I look forward to continued debate on this. Although read the other day that this is appears to be a London wide resolution to street drinking. I'm sure there will be interesting reports on the outcome of this initiative.
Bag lady
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stellaashtray
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Nasorac on reading your post NIMBY sprung straight to mind but saw besonby has already got there i would bevery interested to know where your correlation between street drinking and class a drugs is derived from. as in myyears of working with this group this has not proven to be the case and such assertations are only of benefit in marganalising them further. you speak as if you are coming from a position of knowledge but i wonder if your tomeof research is the daily mail, unlike besonby & baglady who appear to be coming from a more informed and perhaps professionl knowledge stance. Get thestats on the link with supply of class a drugs and crime (i don't mean the theft of a bottle of diamond ice from somerfield) if they prove significant i will join you in your campaign to rid the streets of these pillagers of society.
who shall we tackle next rubs hands with anticipation in creating utopian society
who shall we tackle next rubs hands with anticipation in creating utopian society
A NIMBY is someone who objects to siting something in their own neighborhood but does not object to it being sited elsewhere. I object to street drinking and drug abuse everywhere. I would like it banned in Crawley and Catford as much as Sydenham. Indeed, it IS banned in most other local areas - Lewisham, Catford, Honor Oak and Penge, for example.
I read the Guardian.
I am quite confident that our local street drinkers are also involved in drug abuse in and around the high street.
I am also fully confident that this campaign has the support of the overwhelming majority of the local population as well as the support of the Sydenham Assembly, Sydenham Traders, local police and the police panel.
I expect the first practical steps in this campaign to be put into operation in the next few weeks.
I read the Guardian.
I am quite confident that our local street drinkers are also involved in drug abuse in and around the high street.
I am also fully confident that this campaign has the support of the overwhelming majority of the local population as well as the support of the Sydenham Assembly, Sydenham Traders, local police and the police panel.
I expect the first practical steps in this campaign to be put into operation in the next few weeks.
nasaroc wrote:I am also fully confident that this campaign has the support of the overwhelming majority of the local population as well as the support of the Sydenham Assembly, Sydenham Traders, local police and the police panel.
I expect the first practical steps in this campaign to be put into operation in the next few weeks.
I'm confident that most people (more than 50%) of the population support the death penalty. It doens't make it right.
I also object to our self-appointed guardians in the form of a small clique group forming influencial members of the sydenham assembly, the traders (who only have their profit margins in mind) and those who feel passionately enough to make a noise around the issue. I would wager that the vast majority of people couldn't really care less.
Bensonby
Interesting quote of yours that over 50% of the population want the death penalty but that does not make it right.
I wonder by what authority you have to say it is not right and dismiss the others , who you acknowledge are the majority.
By the way passed the offending seats at about 9.15 am today no serial alcoholics from Hither Green or elsewhere.
Interesting quote of yours that over 50% of the population want the death penalty but that does not make it right.
I wonder by what authority you have to say it is not right and dismiss the others , who you acknowledge are the majority.
By the way passed the offending seats at about 9.15 am today no serial alcoholics from Hither Green or elsewhere.