B.T.W Bensonby - I do not mean to imply you are stupid to believe in god. Having listened to you and sat with you in person I clearly know that not to be the case.
In case you infer that meaning I'd like to go on record that it was not my intention.
Halloween
not at all Greg, I didn't really want a debate on teh nuances of religion here, but it looks like it might turn into that 
I personally can't stand zealots (religious or otherwise) and strangly enough it is possible to be religious and still a vaguely normal, reasonably intelligent, person....
It was not my intention to start the "why aren't you religious?" bandwagon going....moreover, I was questioning the origins, motivations and foundations of some traditions/festivals and those who practice them.
I personally can't stand zealots (religious or otherwise) and strangly enough it is possible to be religious and still a vaguely normal, reasonably intelligent, person....
It was not my intention to start the "why aren't you religious?" bandwagon going....moreover, I was questioning the origins, motivations and foundations of some traditions/festivals and those who practice them.
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Greg Whitehead
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I know you were. In the same way that natbeuk (pray tell natbeuk, what does your moniker mean?) was equally valid in his Celtic beliefs.
Frankly, the chavs just see Haloween as an excuse to get even fatter but still to try and 'slip' into (cue copious amouts of Talcum powder here) skinnier and skinnier jeans so that their vast disgusting stomachs can spill over the waistline even more abhorrently.
So atheist, believer and pagan (can I call you thus natbeuk?) we all at least agree that Haloween has lost it's meaning and as with christmas and easter it's more about the presents than the religious/historical significance.
On that, I think we're agreed?
Frankly, the chavs just see Haloween as an excuse to get even fatter but still to try and 'slip' into (cue copious amouts of Talcum powder here) skinnier and skinnier jeans so that their vast disgusting stomachs can spill over the waistline even more abhorrently.
So atheist, believer and pagan (can I call you thus natbeuk?) we all at least agree that Haloween has lost it's meaning and as with christmas and easter it's more about the presents than the religious/historical significance.
On that, I think we're agreed?
Are you seriously telling me that every child who gets piles of Christmas presents is consciously celebrating the birth of Jesus?bensonby wrote:Are you seriously telling me that the kids that "trick or treat" (and parents the allow them) are consciously undertaking the practices surrounding a defunct/assimilated ancient Irish/Celtic festival?
Ok. First - Greg, I take your point about what Bensonby was trying to question, however I don't think he was going that deep initially. I took offence to him suggesting that trick or treating was "warping" a Christian festival, when in fact the Christian festival "warped" the original Celtic festival that it surplanted. But that's a whole other argument right there, so moving on....Greg Whitehead wrote:I know you were. In the same way that natbeuk (pray tell natbeuk, what does your moniker mean?) was equally valid in his Celtic beliefs.
Frankly, the chavs just see Haloween as an excuse to get even fatter but still to try and 'slip' into (cue copious amouts of Talcum powder here) skinnier and skinnier jeans so that their vast disgusting stomachs can spill over the waistline even more abhorrently.
So atheist, believer and pagan (can I call you thus natbeuk?) we all at least agree that Haloween has lost it's meaning and as with christmas and easter it's more about the presents than the religious/historical significance.
On that, I think we're agreed?
I thought Bensonby was questioning the validity of treak or treating, and I was trying to respond by pointing out that it is not simply just some pointless US import, it actually has a connection to our Celtic origins. The implication I got from his posts was that it trick or treating is not a valid practice - I was trying to point out that it is no less valid than the celebration of Christmas. As you say, both are examples of religious festivals for which the actual importance of the true meaning varies from person to person.
The point I am trying (badly!) to make, is that I don't see that there is any basis for Bensonby to expect trick or treating to not happen simply because he doesn't agree with it. And Bensonby, I apologise if you were not saying that at all but it is the impression I got
So Greg - on your last point, yes I agree.
To answer your questions about me - my moniker comes from my nickname from uni days, Natbe, with a "uk" bit on the end to indicate that I am living in the UK (I'm Aussie), I am female btw, and no I am not pagan. I have my own beliefs which don't fit into a nice little box, and I won't bore you with details!
I think we were at crossed wires a little bit.......I wholly blame my ineloquence.
I was lamenting (and criticising) the lack of meaning that people attatch to, or are even aware of, when going about traditions. Using them as an excuse "just in themselves" - whats the point of having traditions if we don't know (or don't care about) what they mean?
I was lamenting (and criticising) the lack of meaning that people attatch to, or are even aware of, when going about traditions. Using them as an excuse "just in themselves" - whats the point of having traditions if we don't know (or don't care about) what they mean?
Well on that we are agreed. I just don't think we should completely stop traditions because not everyone practicing them completely believes/understands....bensonby wrote: I was lamenting (and criticising) the lack of meaning that people attatch to, or are even aware of, when going about traditions. Using them as an excuse "just in themselves" - whats the point of having traditions if we don't know (or don't care about) what they mean?
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Greg Whitehead
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I'm so sorry for my presumption that you were male Natalie (you need not confirm my equally presumptive guess). Is your surname also Benson?
Anyway, you are right. Religion often incites lack of meaning, understanding or empathy (both ways - those that lack faith now deride those who hold faith and vice-versa those who hold faith mock those who do not in equal measures)
My intention was not to pigeon-hole nor to antagonise. Other than to ask if you work in a bar do I harbour no gingoistic/British prejudices against our Aussie cousins...that's a crap joke BTW
Anyway, you are right. Religion often incites lack of meaning, understanding or empathy (both ways - those that lack faith now deride those who hold faith and vice-versa those who hold faith mock those who do not in equal measures)
My intention was not to pigeon-hole nor to antagonise. Other than to ask if you work in a bar do I harbour no gingoistic/British prejudices against our Aussie cousins...that's a crap joke BTW
Nope, it's in no way related to the letters B & E!Greg Whitehead wrote:I'm so sorry for my presumption that you were male Natalie (you need not confirm my equally presumptive guess). Is your surname also Benson?
Totally agree on the first point.Greg Whitehead wrote: Anyway, you are right. Religion often incites lack of meaning, understanding or empathy (both ways - those that lack faith now deride those who hold faith and vice-versa those who hold faith mock those who do not in equal measures)
My intention was not to pigeon-hole nor to antagonise. Other than to ask if you work in a bar do I harbour no gingoistic/British prejudices against our Aussie cousins...that's a crap joke BTW
On the second... I have never worked in a bar in any country
I do, however, have convict ancestors (seeing as that's the other standard Aussie joke) but am very proud of their achievments in creating a life for themselves in a hostile land. So there. 
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Greg Whitehead
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Greg Whitehead
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well I don't care about the origins of halloween or christmas or easter or any of that stuff (although I'm catholic and know what the bible tells me hehe). I just think it's a bit of fun for kids and I know I enjoyed it as a kid myself so want to do my part for the kiddies now too.
Does anyone know around what time they ghouls and goblins come out to play? Need to make sure I am home in good time to welcome them.
Good idea about the lantern or something to show that we are home.
Does anyone know around what time they ghouls and goblins come out to play? Need to make sure I am home in good time to welcome them.
Good idea about the lantern or something to show that we are home.
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Greg Whitehead
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Well...
When I was a kid growing up in north london (sorry for swearing), I was completely obsessed with halloween (still am a bit), absoutely no idea why! I must have heard about trick or treating from telly or something and instantly decided this was a brillant idea. So when I was nine or ten years old me and my friends used to all get majorly dressed up in halloween stuff and go trick or treating (and certainly not with any parents in tow!) We used to go round several streets of Hornsey and knock on every door – no-one had pumpkins in their window or any of that. The vast majority of people had never heard of trick or treat and we used to have to explain it to them!
Looking back I suppose most people were charmed by the effort we'd gone to because we did alright!. I used to plan my outfit weeks in advance, and we had one black bin bag for all the 'treats' and I distinctly remember ending up with cup cakes with coins stuck in the icing because we bunged it all in together - we ate them anyway! (the cup cakes, not the coins).
A couple of years in and people seemed to get the knack and one memorable year we went round and at one house when we said "trick or treat" - they said "trick" and then chucked a bucket of flour and water at us instead of the other way round (I think we we took it pretty well considering, and they did give us a treat too so we let them off.)
So what I''m really saying is - I don't care where it comes from, I just think its great if its fun. My problem now is its all so sanitised really I think its a little bit less fun, but if I'm in on Halloween I always make sure to have a pumpkin in the window and some treats for the kids – and a bucket of flour and water. (ok just kidding about that last bit.... or am I?)
Oh and by the wasy I haven't read all the thread but natbeuk is basically right as far as I can see. Samhain is one of the pagan festivals that got 'merged' with Christian festvals, in this case 'All hallow's eve'. So don't worry about it. Its okay to have fun you know... I'm sure God doesn't mind.
When I was a kid growing up in north london (sorry for swearing), I was completely obsessed with halloween (still am a bit), absoutely no idea why! I must have heard about trick or treating from telly or something and instantly decided this was a brillant idea. So when I was nine or ten years old me and my friends used to all get majorly dressed up in halloween stuff and go trick or treating (and certainly not with any parents in tow!) We used to go round several streets of Hornsey and knock on every door – no-one had pumpkins in their window or any of that. The vast majority of people had never heard of trick or treat and we used to have to explain it to them!
Looking back I suppose most people were charmed by the effort we'd gone to because we did alright!. I used to plan my outfit weeks in advance, and we had one black bin bag for all the 'treats' and I distinctly remember ending up with cup cakes with coins stuck in the icing because we bunged it all in together - we ate them anyway! (the cup cakes, not the coins).
A couple of years in and people seemed to get the knack and one memorable year we went round and at one house when we said "trick or treat" - they said "trick" and then chucked a bucket of flour and water at us instead of the other way round (I think we we took it pretty well considering, and they did give us a treat too so we let them off.)
So what I''m really saying is - I don't care where it comes from, I just think its great if its fun. My problem now is its all so sanitised really I think its a little bit less fun, but if I'm in on Halloween I always make sure to have a pumpkin in the window and some treats for the kids – and a bucket of flour and water. (ok just kidding about that last bit.... or am I?)
Oh and by the wasy I haven't read all the thread but natbeuk is basically right as far as I can see. Samhain is one of the pagan festivals that got 'merged' with Christian festvals, in this case 'All hallow's eve'. So don't worry about it. Its okay to have fun you know... I'm sure God doesn't mind.
Bah! I hope it rains on Friday - keeps all the blighters from my door! 
I know I know - I'm going to have my front door egg-decorated now for even thinking such un-generous thoughts never mind making them public
One year I even had a yoof come round about 3 days early - he said he couldn't make the 31st!
Little kiddies asking for sweeties with parents on the pavement I don't mind. Lads taller than me asking for money I do
I know I know - I'm going to have my front door egg-decorated now for even thinking such un-generous thoughts never mind making them public
One year I even had a yoof come round about 3 days early - he said he couldn't make the 31st!
Little kiddies asking for sweeties with parents on the pavement I don't mind. Lads taller than me asking for money I do