Halloween

yummymummy · Post by **yummymummy** » 21 Oct 2008 09:18

Does anyone know if Sydenham high street will be holding Halloween events as it has over the past couple of years?

bensonby · Post by **bensonby** » 21 Oct 2008 10:42

I'm sure all the local little darlings will be out throwing eggs and fireworks if that's what you mean....

yummymummy · Post by **yummymummy** » 21 Oct 2008 11:18

LOL. No, wasn't exactly what I was referring to!

Over the past couple of years there has been an organised event where the kids dress up and trick or treat the local participating shops which concluded with a fancy dress comp, it was a really good local event!

Eagle · Post by **Eagle** » 21 Oct 2008 12:25

Have you see the local shops.
Suggest they avoid the drunks

mysti77 · Post by **mysti77** » 22 Oct 2008 07:56

actually I wanted to ask about halloween too. I don't have kids but in my old neighbourhood we would buy stuff for the kids that come 'round door to door. I take it this doesn't happen in Sydenham?

Greg Whitehead · Post by **Greg Whitehead** » 22 Oct 2008 09:35

mysti77 wrote:actually I wanted to ask about halloween too. I don't have kids but in my old neighbourhood we would buy stuff for the kids that come 'round door to door. I take it this doesn't happen in Sydenham?

In my experience it does. There are a good many 'comfortable' streets here in Sydders and I have seen a good volume of children trick-or-treating each year. As you write, even those without children (Dinkys, Empty-Nesters and the such) seem to have a bowl or two filled with sweets for when the children arrive.

Eagle is correct in his summation though that outside of the Dolphin, Wellbeing or Blue Mountain parents who do not want their children eating anything low grade/out-of-date would be well advised to not send them up and down Sydenham Road.

Savvy · Post by **Savvy** » 22 Oct 2008 09:39

It does where I live, children usually come round with either parents or older teens. If the children and their minders are responsible they will only knock at a door with some kind of 'welcoming feature' (we have battery lit pumpkins in our window so they know its ok to knock). If you want kids to come then leave light on and put something of this sort in your window/porch - a balloon or poster will do. One year we had a little one sleeping and I put a note saying 'baby asleep, please don't knock' and they didn't.
It does depend on where you live though and the kids and how much responsibly they've been taught.

tiggs · Post by **tiggs** » 22 Oct 2008 09:49

Yes, I agree with the above. We must live on a 'child-friendly' street and always have groups knocking on the doors. Those that welcome the knocks do put a lantern or some-such in the window - we don't and we still get called on! I just hide in the back and pretend I don't exist! I got sweeties in one year but when 'yoofs' were coming round with just a scream mask on (I mean as the only fancy dress item

) I wasn't too appreciative. The final straw I think was coming home from work at 5.30 to find out the front door had already been colour-foamed!

I often see the remnants of egg/flour along the road so I think they do trick

bensonby · Post by **bensonby** » 22 Oct 2008 09:58

do people actually like the idea of All Hallow's Eve being warped by such a ghastly trans-atlantic import?

I go to church on the 1st and nothing more...

Greg Whitehead · Post by **Greg Whitehead** » 22 Oct 2008 10:10

bensonby wrote:do people actually like the idea of All Hallow's Eve being warped by such a ghastly trans-atlantic import?

I go to church on the 1st and nothing more...

Clearly they do.

In much the same way we all celebrate something on December 25th borrowed heavily from the Roman festival Dies Natalis Solis Invicti. Or in the same way (and this is a wonderul tit-bit that all far-right Xenophobes will love) our Queen's English is very much a Germanic tongue. Or that we all get dressed up in red robes and white beard at office parties thanks to Coca-Cola (ahem, ok I do when I'm secret Santa).

Religous festivals may be losing some of their true meaning I'll agree and Capitalism may be playing a large part in that but we are a nation of imports and given that there are 'only' 7 million practising religious types in the UK neither are we a partiularly religious nation any more.

bensonby · Post by **bensonby** » 22 Oct 2008 10:39

Greg Whitehead wrote: Clearly they do.

Well, quite, they obviously do....but I'd be interested to know why. What is a tradition if it has no meaning? Why do people buy into it?

In much the same way we all celebrate something on December 25th borrowed heavily from the Roman festival Dies Natalis Solis Invicti.

Well, indeed, but christmas certainly has its religious meaning. The dating of it (council of Nicea was it?) was a mere convenience. Apparently there is evidence to suggest that it should actually be in March. But the actualy date is irrelevant, its a convenience, it is the meaning that holds the importance.

Or in the same way (and this is a wonderul tit-bit that all far-right Xenophobes will love) our Queen's English is very much a Germanic tongue.
Yes, the great thing about english is its depth and the wealth it has gained from lots of other languages.

There are lots of interesting nuances to the English language that are often very telling. For example:

"Mutton" is related etymologically to the French "Mouton" through the Norman conquest. Whereas "Sheep" comes from the Anglo-Saxon. I think that raises an interesting historical point regarding historical heirarchies and their reflection in linguistic development. The peasants looked after them - the nobles ate them!

Or that we all get dressed up in red robes and white beard at office parties thanks to Coca-Cola (ahem, ok I do when I'm secret Santa).
That's actually a myth. Althought the Father Christmas figure is a strange hybrid of traditions.

Religous festivals may be losing some of their true meaning I'll agree and Capitalism may be playing a large part in that but we are a nation of imports and given that there are 'only' 7 million practising religious types in the UK neither are we a partiularly religious nation any more.

So why celebrate religious festivals at all then? Are they not meaningless if there is no awareness (let alone belief) amongst those who celebrate? Whilst practicing religious people are in a minority, I would wager that the majority of people "feel" or "believe" something...

natbeuk · Post by **natbeuk** » 22 Oct 2008 10:41

bensonby wrote:do people actually like the idea of All Hallow's Eve being warped by such a ghastly trans-atlantic import?

I go to church on the 1st and nothing more...

And how do people feel about the idea of the Celtic festival of Samhain being "warped" into All Hallow's Eve??

Halloween orginated from Samhain. On this night it was believed that the veil between the worlds was thin and spirits walked the earth. Therefore people would leave little gifts of food and drink out to placate the spirits.

This custom later evolved into a Christian tradition whereby on All Saints Day (the day after Halloween) the poor would beg food ("soul cakes") from the rich in return for praying for the souls of their departed relatives.

Trick or Treat's exact origins aren't exactly clear, but their ties to the festival are obvious.

As Greg says we are a nation of imports, and All Hallow's Eve is in itself a comparatively modern "import" to Britain.

(this post edited because I can't spell today!)

bensonby · Post by **bensonby** » 22 Oct 2008 10:42

but at least it actually has a meaning.....rather than an excuse to bugger about.

natbeuk · Post by **natbeuk** » 22 Oct 2008 10:43

bensonby wrote:but at least it actually has a meaning.....rather than an excuse to bugger about.

What has a meaning?

natbeuk · Post by **natbeuk** » 22 Oct 2008 10:45

bensonby wrote:
Greg Whitehead wrote: Clearly they do.
Well, quite, they obviously do....but I'd be interested to know why. What is a tradition if it has no meaning? Why do people buy into it?

Because it is fun. Christmas has a meaning to some, but to others it is a reason to get presents and eat a lot. Halloween/Samhain/All Hallow's has a meaning to some and to others it is a reason to go out and try to get sweets.

bensonby · Post by **bensonby** » 22 Oct 2008 10:48

natbeuk wrote:
bensonby wrote:
Greg Whitehead wrote: Clearly they do.
Well, quite, they obviously do....but I'd be interested to know why. What is a tradition if it has no meaning? Why do people buy into it?

Because it is fun. Christmas has a meaning to some, but to others it is a reason to get presents and eat a lot. Halloween/Samhain/All Hallow's has a meaning to some and to others it is a reason to go out and try to get sweets.

Why not just do it on the 15th May instead? The shops would be a lot quieter, it would be less stressful all round.

Personally I celebrate thursdays.

natbeuk · Post by **natbeuk** » 22 Oct 2008 10:52

bensonby wrote:
natbeuk wrote:
bensonby wrote: Well, quite, they obviously do....but I'd be interested to know why. What is a tradition if it has no meaning? Why do people buy into it?

Because it is fun. Christmas has a meaning to some, but to others it is a reason to get presents and eat a lot. Halloween/Samhain/All Hallow's has a meaning to some and to others it is a reason to go out and try to get sweets.
Why not just do it on the 15th May instead? The shops would be a lot quieter, it would be less stressful all round.

Personally I celebrate thursdays.

Bensonby, you are being incredibly disrespectful and very much giving the impression that you think your beliefs and practices are the only ones that are valid. Trick or treat relates to a festival that has it's origins deep in the Celtic past of Britain. If you don't like it, don't answer your door when kids come knocking. Personally, I celebrate Samhain. I see trick or treat as a lot of fun for kids if it can be done safely for them. The older kids that get a bit thuggy... well, it's always a shame when a minority can spoil things for everyone else.

bensonby · Post by **bensonby** » 22 Oct 2008 11:02

Are you seriously telling me that the kids that "trick or treat" (and parents the allow them) are consciously undertaking the practices surrounding a defunct/assimilated ancient Irish/Celtic festival?

bensonby · Post by **bensonby** » 22 Oct 2008 11:04

I'm all for promoting the asimilation, integration and adopting of other customs. In fact I see it historically as one of our cultures greatest strengths. We've always adopted the best parts of ther cultures and welcomed them in. Whether that is in ancient times with the adoption of pagan festivals, whether they are linguistically from the germanic tribes or the norman french, or whether it is more recent from the commonwealth countries.

What I do object to is shallow, meaningless commercial imports that have absolutely no, or very little, cultural or meaningful basis.

Greg Whitehead · Post by **Greg Whitehead** » 22 Oct 2008 11:24

natbeuk wrote:
bensonby wrote:
natbeuk wrote: Because it is fun. Christmas has a meaning to some, but to others it is a reason to get presents and eat a lot. Halloween/Samhain/All Hallow's has a meaning to some and to others it is a reason to go out and try to get sweets.
Why not just do it on the 15th May instead? The shops would be a lot quieter, it would be less stressful all round.

Personally I celebrate thursdays.
Bensonby, you are being incredibly disrespectful and very much giving the impression that you think your beliefs and practices are the only ones that are valid. Trick or treat relates to a festival that has it's origins deep in the Celtic past of Britain. If you don't like it, don't answer your door when kids come knocking. Personally, I celebrate Samhain. I see trick or treat as a lot of fun for kids if it can be done safely for them. The older kids that get a bit thuggy... well, it's always a shame when a minority can spoil things for everyone else.

Wow, talk about a Pandora's Box!

Gentlemen, before I make my next point allow me to affirm my steadfast lack of faith. As a child raised in a practising Roman Catholic family and as a newborn child that was apparently a sinner before I'd even drawn my first breath on this Earth...acts of penance/purgatory? Pfffft. I have re-read the bible since my 'confirmation' many times but still I remain a devout Atheist. There is no god (the uppercase on Atheist and lower case on god are intentional). Professor Dawkins (amongst others) has lent weight to this argument first sewn into the public conscience by Einstein with a statement along the lines of "the more intelligent one is the less likely one is to believe in god".

HOWEVER

I think Bensonby is actually being quite reasonable in his posts. I get the impression that he is rather a religious chap and whatever my views on that may be I think he's actually being quite accommodating. There's a thread on this forum from some bible-bashing tub-thumping types which is just the greatest turn-off but I don't think he's taking their tact. I pity them and their faith...religious zealots have a great deal to answer for. The thread was about balloons or something – jesus died for my sins? I think not.

Bensonby seems to be quite rightly asking WHY? He asks why so many people celebrate religious festivals if they seem to lack insight/conviction as to their meaning. And he is correct. As a man of faith he is within his rights to ask what Easter/Christmas etc means to us. I am a complete non-believer. I do however, welcome, Easter and the Christmas break for the lie-in/family get-together and all the reverie that entails.

I am a hypocrite. I ought to work on the religious days rather than get drunk the night before and sleep all day. In much the same way as we take Bank Holidays still.

To bring this (as usual long-winded) post to its conclusion Bensonby is not (at least to mine eye) the 'jesus died for your sins' usual pie-eyed religious nut you seem to think he is. He's quite rightly saying 'do people just do the things at the time of religious celebrations because of tradition/continuity/sheep mentality'? And to that I hold my hands up.

I am the least religious person I know. But please don't take my Good Friday and Easter Monday et al away.

Sydenham Town Forum

The Community Voice for London SE26 since 2004

Halloween

Halloween