Banning drinking in public

scott.l.hamilton · Post by **scott.l.hamilton** » 10 Oct 2008 19:57

If you are coming for drinks tomorrow, I will give you my opinion of why from the Sydenham "initiative" I am working on and some others bits. Otherwise, to much to type

OOHH so much to say............

nasaroc · Post by **nasaroc** » 12 Oct 2008 18:05

I met a neighbour in Sydenham Road yesterday morning and amongst other things we were talking about the high street and the need to make it a comfortable place for people to walk around as well as shop. When I asked her about her attitude to drunks outside the post office she told me that she never went across to that side of the street when the drunks were sitting there and certainly not with her young daughter.

Now many may dismiss this as over nervousness on her part (although she certainly isn't a "fussy", timid or "stand-offish" person). But I don't think her attitude is very much different to many other locals. Many of my neighbours hold the same attitude. If they have children they'd much rather pile them into a car and travel to the Savacentre or some other supermarket where they feel it is "safer".

Whether we like it or not, our high street is in direct competition with places like the Savacentre for its bread and butter. Can you imagine that Sainburys would put up with something like this for longer than a nanosecond if groups of drunks congregated around the doors of the Savacentre?

I want one thing: a comfortable, safe environment on our high street so that people want to spend time there and shop. Anything that stands in the way of this - and that includes a crowd of permanent drunks huddled in a central area - should be discouraged and if possible removed.

If you were running a business would you want to have a huddle of permanent drunks outside your premises? Of course not.

And yet some posters have suggested that we have a duty to encourage these characters to occupy a prominent position in the middle of the high street where we can all "keep and eye on them and prevent them coming to harm". Or that we can do nothing about this since "they aren't breaking the law".

This is insanity.

These people are having a considerable effect on the commercial development of the local shops close to where they congregate and I am delighted to hear at long last that behind the scenes many of our local traders are also saying that enough is enough on this issue. Good luck to them.

bensonby · Post by **bensonby** » 13 Oct 2008 09:10

nasaroc wrote:I met a neighbour in Sydenham Road yesterday morning and amongst other things we were talking about the high street and the need to make it a comfortable place for people to walk around as well as shop. When I asked her about her attitude to drunks outside the post office she told me that she never went across to that side of the street when the drunks were sitting there and certainly not with her young daughter.

Now many may dismiss this as over nervousness on her part (although she certainly isn't a "fussy", timid or "stand-offish" person). But I don't think her attitude is very much different to many other locals. Many of my neighbours hold the same attitude. If they have children they'd much rather pile them into a car and travel to the Savacentre or some other supermarket where they feel it is "safer".

Whether we like it or not, our high street is in direct competition with places like the Savacentre for its bread and butter. Can you imagine that Sainburys would put up with something like this for longer than a nanosecond if groups of drunks congregated around the doors of the Savacentre?

The simple fact of the matter here is that savacentre - and its surrounding car park - is private property. It is up to savacentre to decide who they want and who they dont want on their premesis; they can remove who they like. The bench outside the post office is on a public highway, it is a shared communal place where no one group or another owns it. It can not, should not and must not have the lawful activities of any group be curtailed by any other group.

If you were running a business would you want to have a huddle of permanent drunks outside your premises? Of course not.

Probably not, but I might not want children outside the shop, or black people, or ginger people, or catholics or ugly people.... but if I choose to open a shop on a public highway then I acccept that anyone can stad outside. If I didn't like it that much then I'd go and live in a gated community cut off from teh rest of the world.

Imagine if I started a thread arguing that my beauty parlour was suffereing business because the people that stood around nearby were ugly.... you'd tell me where to go!

I want one thing: a comfortable, safe environment on our high street so that people want to spend time there and shop. Anything that stands in the way of this - and that includes a crowd of permanent drunks huddled in a central area - should be discouraged and if possible removed.

I want those things too. However, seeing things that I don't like (people drinking) does not amount to something being unsafe and for me feeling the need to have people forcibly removed. I fail to see how these people outside the post office are stopping me going about my business or how they are making the place unsafe. - If they are being intimidating (sitting there with a can of special brew is not intimidating) then they police can be called.

The CJ&PA - the legislation that allows drinking control zones to be implemented - was drawn up to stop drinking where disorder and nuisance was being committed by those people drinking (mainly city centres which have trouble at closing) - I have yet to see any crime, nuisance or disorder started by these people.

For god's sake, live and let live...I personally don't like them there, but if one doesn't choose to be bothered then one isn't bothered.

Or that we can do nothing about this since "they aren't breaking the law".

This is insanity.

How is that insane? they aren't breaking the law... so they should be left alone. I thought we had quite a free society in this country of live and let live...not a society where we criminalise, marginalise and curtain twitch our way into a police-state.

Gaz · Post by **Gaz** » 13 Oct 2008 11:52

Imagine if I started a thread arguing that my beauty parlour was suffereing business because the people that stood around nearby were ugly.... you'd tell me where to go!

That's being a bit harsh on Nasaroc - I'm sure he's a lovely looking fella...

But, seriously, I am all for protection of civil liberties and would hate to not be able to drink a can of lager or similar whilst out in public. However, I don't consider myself a drunkard and I'm not the sort of person to sit on a public bench or wander down the highstreet getting sozzled. Which leads me onto my next point...

If the police or Specials want to they could blitz the area over a few days and:

Start nicking them for urinating in a public place/down alleyways etc; and

Nick them for being drunk in a public place (what is the definition of drunkness here? Over the drink/drive limit or causing a nuisance??).

Even if these charges are later thrown out, they'll soon get fed up of being disrupted and disperse elsewhere. However, this is just moving the problem to another town centre (hurrah!

) or to our sidestreets/bus-stops which would be even more intimidating for the general public...

lambchops · Post by **lambchops** » 13 Oct 2008 12:18

I don't use the high street at all...so i don't really know where you are talkign about....but, how about these gorilla gardeners kidnap the offending bench?

bensonby · Post by **bensonby** » 13 Oct 2008 12:22

Gaz wrote:If the police or Specials

Pardon?

And, yes, Nasaroc is a handsome fellow - I was making a rhetorical point.

nasaroc · Post by **nasaroc** » 13 Oct 2008 12:22

Don't let Bensonby convince you that local authorities including LBL have no power to deal with this problem. The way that they do this is explained below and taken from the LBL website. LBL have had success in apply this to places such as Lewisham Town Centre and Catford. Other local authorities do the same.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is a Drinking Control Zone?
A Drinking Control Zone is a defined area where the Council has decided that public drinking causes a nuisance. In this area, the police will have powers to tackle drinking in any street, road, byway, footpath, park or private land on which you can walk unhindered (including within buildings).

In a drinking control zone a police officer can require a person to hand over open containers of alcohol, such as cans or bottles. Once warned, if a person refuses to comply they can be arrested.

The maximum fine is £500. Those who would be most affected by this zone are people who choose to drink in public spaces and who cause a nuisance to residents, shop keepers and visitors to the area.

Sections 12 – 16 Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001 gives the Council the power to make an Order designating a part of the borough as a Drinking Control Zone.

Alternatives to a Drinking Control Zone
The other is the additional police power to ‘give direction to leave a locality’ under Section 27 of the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006.

This new power enables a uniformed police officer, to issue a direct an individual aged 16 years or over to leave a locality. The constable can use this power if they are satisfied that the individual is likely to contribute to alcohol-related crime and disorder. The direction can prohibit their return for up to 48 hours
[/b]

bensonby · Post by **bensonby** » 13 Oct 2008 12:32

But all of these measures (which aren't, incedentally, bans) can only be really enforced if we were suffering alcohol-related crime, disorder or nuisance. In the case of s.27 you need a reasonable and genuine belief that the person in question is actually going to cause some knid of violence..... I have yet to experience any violence from these people nor do I anticipate any.

You are seeing crimes where there aren't any.

castiron73 · Post by **castiron73** » 13 Oct 2008 12:42

Another reason the drunks sit by the local traders' shops and not Savacentre is that it is the local traders who are supplying them with booze, Somerfield included, and not Savacentre

I'm heartily fed up of nit-picking over points of law and uber-liberals telling me it's fine to sit in public like that pissed. It is not, whether it is legal or not. Judging by the number of cuts and bruises, they take up a lot of ambulance time too.

As for helping them, no authority will bother to help if they can leave them to die gradually outside the post office as we all walk past.

Any regeneration must include plans to make it illegal. I'd force anoraks to stay in gated communities while I was at it.

Can someone knock up an online petition we can sign?

bensonby · Post by **bensonby** » 13 Oct 2008 12:45

castiron73 wrote:I'm heartily fed up of nit-picking over points of law and uber-liberals telling me it's fine to sit in public like that pissed.

funnily enough I'm broadly not really a liberal.....libertarianism is a different thing entirely

and I remind you - being drunk is, in fact, a crime. (cf. licensing act 1874)

Any regeneration must include plans to make it illegal. I'd force anoraks to stay in gated communities while I was at it.

well, if you don't want to nitpick how are LBL, or anyone else, going to make it illegal? One needs to find a point of law to facilitate it old boy....its the nitpickers who should find it no?

castiron73 · Post by **castiron73** » 13 Oct 2008 12:55

**** OFF

You have made this forum unbearable

Goodbye

Greg Whitehead · Post by **Greg Whitehead** » 13 Oct 2008 12:58

I sort of side with you Bensonby. The benchwarmers outside the Post Office have been something of 'fixture' in Sydders since I moved here 7 years ago. I've never felt nervous going past them, they've never caused an obstruction to my passage, never begged money from me, never uttered a profanity within earshot and never seemed to be doing anything other than sitting on a sunken bench drinking themselves to even lower level (that's not to say they don't do any or all of the above but I've never seen or heard it)

That written, I know that Nasaroc (fancy a game of Tennis soon?) has a point that (if this is possible given they are outside the Two Half's) they do bring down the tone of the neighbourhood somewhat and alcoholism is a disease that often does go hand-in-hand with a questionable disposition/tolerance threshold.

Funnily enough I've had my main issues with two hyperactive/aggressive white males who I've seen leave the Home Park Estate and walk up and down Sydenham Road. They have their tops off, are festooned with tatoos and merrily drink from cans of lager and smoke cigarettes. Doesn't stop them from begging and getting 'aggro' when you say no. Those are the ones that put me on edge. The ones outside the Naborhood seem quite placid...

Has anyone else come across our two skinny friends?

bensonby · Post by **bensonby** » 13 Oct 2008 13:12

castiron73 wrote:**** OFF

You have made this forum unbearable

Goodbye

calm down....there's no need for profanity.

Greg Whitehead · Post by **Greg Whitehead** » 13 Oct 2008 13:21

castiron73 wrote:**** OFF

You have made this forum unbearable

Goodbye

Wow Besnonby. Even my most provocative post has never resulted in that result...what's your secret?

A well reasoned and well argued response from castiron73 though. If you both want to kiss and make up Bensonby I'd imagine you'll find castiron73 outside the Post Office sinking a few cans...

Post by **admin** » 13 Oct 2008 13:26

I'd rather it was in the Town Pub to help keep Greg company

Admin

Thomas · Post by **Thomas** » 13 Oct 2008 13:35

Overall, the drinkers on the bench do not cause too many actual problems relating to crime, certainly in my experience - does anyone have any different experiences? However, they are a real nuisance. For a start, they do monopolise the bench - there are a number of infirm elderly people in the area who might well have good need to sit down whilst out shopping but would not want, for good reason, to sit with them. They can also be intimidatory - not a problem if you're young male and fit but if I was a small child they would scare the life out of me and if I was the parent or guardian of a small child I would hesitate to walk past them. I do have sympathy with a libertarian "live and let live" attitude to life, but it’s a lot easier to adopt that attitude if you're young, strong and without dependents. I think that the alcohol excluzion zone powers offer the right levels of proportionality and discretion to the relevant authorities so that we avoid regulatory overkill whilst hopefully ensuring that people are not intimidated away from the high street.

Greg Whitehead · Post by **Greg Whitehead** » 13 Oct 2008 13:38

admin wrote:I'd rather it was in the Town Pub to help keep Greg company

Admin

I'm not sure if you've misunderstood Admin but this is actally castiron73 vs. Bensonby. It does make a refreshing change from Greg vs [insert anonymous coward here] though but I hadn't noticed any previous between these two.

I'm going to PM Bensonby to ask for some pointers as to how to get a certain someone to crawl back under his stone.

bensonby · Post by **bensonby** » 13 Oct 2008 13:41

Thomas wrote:Overall, the drinkers on the bench do not cause too many actual problems relating to crime, certainly in my experience - does anyone have any different experiences? However, they are a real nuisance. For a start, they do monopolise the bench - there are a number of infirm elderly people in the area who might well have good need to sit down whilst out shopping but would not want, for good reason, to sit with them. They can also be intimidatory - not a problem if you're young male and fit but if I was a small child they would scare the life out of me and if I was the parent or guardian of a small child I would hesitate to walk past them. I do have sympathy with a libertarian "live and let live" attitude to life, but it’s a lot easier to adopt that attitude if you're young, strong and without dependents. I think that the alcohol excluzion zone powers offer the right levels of proportionality and discretion to the relevant authorities so that we avoid regulatory overkill whilst hopefully ensuring that people are not intimidated away from the high street.

A very sensible and well worded opinion Thomas. If the drunks were removed though where are they going to go? I would hazzard Alexandria Rec Ground, Mayow Park or one of the local residential streets. I would consider them more of a nuisance there.

Also, a drinking control zone is not some kind of magic bullet. one exists in Lewisham Town Centre. However, I know for a fact that in the small green area between the police station and the train station the police often walk straight past the drunks.....precisely because they aren't causing any crime or disorder there and then. Would you rather have the plod out and about - keeping an eye on the drunks - or would you rather they were taking away booze, winding up the drunks and subsequently arresting them and therefore off the streets for hours?

Eagle · Post by **Eagle** » 13 Oct 2008 13:51

I think we have two opposing views who refuse to compromise or moderate their opinions. Very few people seem to be in the middle here.

I personally find drunks in public places unacceptable especially to passing ladies and children but not sure what we can really do. Presumably these people do not sleep on the street and presumably they are getting a handout of some sort.
HMG should make these people sign a form confirming no drinking outside before they can get our money.

Thomas · Post by **Thomas** » 13 Oct 2008 13:56

In an ideal world they would be removed to a treatment centre and return in time to the local community as model citizens - however we're not in an ideal world and as you say there are no magic bullets. I don't know where they might go - but it's quite possible that they might not live in Sydenham and travel here because of the way they are treated by the police in other nearby areas (which an earlier poster did suggest was the case). Perhaps the way forward is finding out a bit more about how AEZs work in practice in places like Penge and Lewisham and what police and local residents think of them? Could anyone shed any more light on this?

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Banning drinking in public