I would like to see something along the lines of a 'Lorenzos' in Crystal Palace. This is a lovely Italian restaurant - anyone on the Sydenham Town Forum been there? It must have been there for years - we have been going there for a long time and the quality of the food has always been very good. They are always full and you do have to book at the weekend.
The HSBC building would be an excellent site for something like that - and would possibly be a goldmine for someone who was prepared to work hard - probably a family business like Lorenzos would flourish.
If you look at places like East Dulwich and Crystal Palace for example, you can never have enough of these sort of eateries.
The old HSBC building - what to do...
The OLd HSBC
What Sydenham Road really needs at the old HSBC site is a trendy Spanish Tapas Bar. Honor Oak Road has a tapas restaurant/cafe (called Tapastry) which is a funky place to eat while munching away at fresh Calamari and delicious garlic prawns. (Crystal palace has Los Torreros) So Certainly NOT a MacDs!!!!!! We are lucky to have an excellent curry house (Garam masala), Mexican and Italian (Montecassino) which is at long last being re-vamped (about time). It's high time we had a bit of tapas to choose from. Golden City used to be quite good but the decor is very tired and run down now. Food there has gone down hill too. Ho hum. 
Pizza Express anytime
If it's just a choice of Pizza Express or Nandos, I'll have Pizza Express anytime!! Or indeed a good Tapas Restaurant.
hsbc
I think this has been discussed elsewhere too, but I think we need to get more quality indepnedents on the high street to have any hope of attracting quality chains.
I agree that tapas would be great! Does anyone have any personal contact with restaurants in CP or ED who might consider opening a branch here?
While we are at it, the site that was supposed to be redeveloped by the Jam Circus people on the bridge is very quiet any word on this? And the blind shop has been boarded up for ages too.
I agree that tapas would be great! Does anyone have any personal contact with restaurants in CP or ED who might consider opening a branch here?
While we are at it, the site that was supposed to be redeveloped by the Jam Circus people on the bridge is very quiet any word on this? And the blind shop has been boarded up for ages too.
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catscratch
- Posts: 83
- Joined: 13 Jul 2008 12:44
- Location: se20
I'm sorry to butt in on this pipe dream, but frankly some of you patently have very little idea of business sense.
The turnover required to sustain a business of the kinds mooted would probably not be sustained in Sydenham High in its present state.
To think that by writing to any of those businesses suggested and have them say whoopee what a good idea is frankly naive.
I suggest you go into the start up costs and running costs involved, and do your sums.
You'll be horrified.
I speak as some one who once was persuaded that such and such a business would be welcomed in an area, not so far away.
It was indeed welcomed and many people popped in to say what a good idea etc.
Sadly few of them put their hands in their pockets often enough to cover weekly overheads.
The turnover required to sustain a business of the kinds mooted would probably not be sustained in Sydenham High in its present state.
To think that by writing to any of those businesses suggested and have them say whoopee what a good idea is frankly naive.
I suggest you go into the start up costs and running costs involved, and do your sums.
You'll be horrified.
I speak as some one who once was persuaded that such and such a business would be welcomed in an area, not so far away.
It was indeed welcomed and many people popped in to say what a good idea etc.
Sadly few of them put their hands in their pockets often enough to cover weekly overheads.
Sorry catscratch but I think you're completely wrong. The success of businesses such as Blue Mountain Café and That's Amore show that there is demand in the area, as does the high proportion of young professionals now living in the area (you only have to visit the train station during peak hour to see the latter). This can only increase when the ELL opens this pocket of London up to those working in the Canary Wharf area.
Perhaps it is not realistic for an independant start-up, but for a national chain the start-up costs are perfectly affordable.
The high street will never improve unless someone takes the initiative. A chain such as Nandos or Pizza Express could afford to take this initiative, and in so doing cash in on relatively cheap (compared to the rest of London) property costs.
Personally I am not naïve enough to think it's just a case of opening a nice restaurant and the crowds will follow.. you need to have the substance to back it up.. you need finances, you need marketing, you need a very strong product, you need quality. In all honesty, if you opened somewhere yourself and it failed (which is how I'm interpreting your comments), perhaps it was not the area that was to blame, but that you just didn't have the substance to really deliver on your idea and to make those potential customers actually want to part with their cash.
Perhaps it is not realistic for an independant start-up, but for a national chain the start-up costs are perfectly affordable.
The high street will never improve unless someone takes the initiative. A chain such as Nandos or Pizza Express could afford to take this initiative, and in so doing cash in on relatively cheap (compared to the rest of London) property costs.
Personally I am not naïve enough to think it's just a case of opening a nice restaurant and the crowds will follow.. you need to have the substance to back it up.. you need finances, you need marketing, you need a very strong product, you need quality. In all honesty, if you opened somewhere yourself and it failed (which is how I'm interpreting your comments), perhaps it was not the area that was to blame, but that you just didn't have the substance to really deliver on your idea and to make those potential customers actually want to part with their cash.
Totally agree, look how busy the new businesses are like the Dolphin, Sugahill, Blue Mountain etc.
If people want to eat out, its more than food on a plate, it's an experience. If you want to convince people to part with their cash you have to try harder, provide great quality food in a fitting environment with great service.
Make people feel special.
There are plenty of independent businesses that succeed. That's amore, Lorenzos in CP, Lawrences wine bar in Crofton Park, Meze Megal in Brockley to name but a few. They succeed because they are good.
Chains don't always get it right. Prezzo shut down in CP because there were too many pizza places and it wasn't well run.
Find out what people want, let people know you are doing it, do it well and you will do well.
If people want to eat out, its more than food on a plate, it's an experience. If you want to convince people to part with their cash you have to try harder, provide great quality food in a fitting environment with great service.
Make people feel special.
There are plenty of independent businesses that succeed. That's amore, Lorenzos in CP, Lawrences wine bar in Crofton Park, Meze Megal in Brockley to name but a few. They succeed because they are good.
Chains don't always get it right. Prezzo shut down in CP because there were too many pizza places and it wasn't well run.
Find out what people want, let people know you are doing it, do it well and you will do well.
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Paddy Pantsdown
- Posts: 204
- Joined: 1 Oct 2004 10:04
- Location: Venner Road
I'm not so sure. The point you make is the 'young professionals' leave Sydenham by train during the opening hours of many retail businesses. So the High Street outlets have to depend on other groups to cover all costs.natbeuk wrote:Sorry catscratch but I think you're completely wrong. The success of businesses such as Blue Mountain Café and That's Amore show that there is demand in the area, as does the high proportion of young professionals now living in the area (you only have to visit the train station during peak hour to see the latter). This can only increase when the ELL opens this pocket of London up to those working in the Canary Wharf area..
When some of us thought about putting a coffee shop into HSBC my back of envelope calculations showed how hard it was to breakeven and how easy it was to show a loss. Which is why we welcome BM & Sugahill who hopefully have more expertise in extracting greater added value.
Oh and 'Young Professionals' are just the group now being squeezed on the job front (Kleinwort Bensons should be firing around a 1,000 this week). Those that survive the credit crunch cull will have increased property costs on top of possible negative equity. Not a good target group atm.
Maybe 'Old ex-Professionals' no longer taking the train, nicely pensioned, no kids or mortgage to support and looking for things to do. And even new partners to do it with - the over 60 group is the only one where divorces are increasing as the baby boomers of 1947/49 hit the streets looking for sex, drugs and rock'n'roll (again).
PP
Is that were the case Paddy, then how do Sugahill, Blue Mountain etc survive?
What about in the evening when all these 'young professionals' come home. Lots of people work from home these days too, they don't all work in town. Hos does East Dulwich support so many small businesses?
I think there is plenty of opportunity in Sydenham for more varied and better businesses without ending up with lots of 'East2west's.
It's a shame we seem to be talking ourselves down. Does everyone here genuinely hate going out to eat in a restaurant, having a choice of places to go that offer good food, in a nice environment that is inviting from the outside and a credit to the high street?
What about in the evening when all these 'young professionals' come home. Lots of people work from home these days too, they don't all work in town. Hos does East Dulwich support so many small businesses?
I think there is plenty of opportunity in Sydenham for more varied and better businesses without ending up with lots of 'East2west's.
It's a shame we seem to be talking ourselves down. Does everyone here genuinely hate going out to eat in a restaurant, having a choice of places to go that offer good food, in a nice environment that is inviting from the outside and a credit to the high street?
I for one have not got a firm grasp of how the finances of running a bar/ restaurant stack up and but I'm sure that its much harder to make a success of it than most people think. However, Crystal Palace does not seem to have a wildly different demographic than Sydenham, and what I am at a loss to explain is how is it that they have a number of restaurants up and running (covering different cuisines and budgets) whilst we here have rather less choice.
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catscratch
- Posts: 83
- Joined: 13 Jul 2008 12:44
- Location: se20
Points taken.
BUT
How many times a week are you prepared to eat out at this new HSBC eating out place?
Provided of course its somewhere you actually want to go to.
How many times a week do you patronise Blue Mountain et al and for more than a coffee?
This notion that "young professionals" [surely I am not the only one who finds this term obnoxious?] are awash with cash to spend say twice a week in some chain restaurant in truthfully not a very pleasent high street
I doubt it.
If anyone wished to start a decent independant restaurant they would not pick a white elephant building like the HSBC; a fiscal liability.
Plus, you are all assuming who ever owns it is willing to sell/lease/rent it and that the council are willing to accept change of use for a start.
Bit of a snide dig at my post back there re my business,which I sold, and about which the poster knows nothing .So I will not comment further.
BUT
How many times a week are you prepared to eat out at this new HSBC eating out place?
Provided of course its somewhere you actually want to go to.
How many times a week do you patronise Blue Mountain et al and for more than a coffee?
This notion that "young professionals" [surely I am not the only one who finds this term obnoxious?] are awash with cash to spend say twice a week in some chain restaurant in truthfully not a very pleasent high street
I doubt it.
If anyone wished to start a decent independant restaurant they would not pick a white elephant building like the HSBC; a fiscal liability.
Plus, you are all assuming who ever owns it is willing to sell/lease/rent it and that the council are willing to accept change of use for a start.
Bit of a snide dig at my post back there re my business,which I sold, and about which the poster knows nothing .So I will not comment further.
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Paddy Pantsdown
- Posts: 204
- Joined: 1 Oct 2004 10:04
- Location: Venner Road
You know as well as I how much the rates/rent for HSBC is. You know the minimum wage and project labour cost. Add in, say £10k for refurbishment equipment etc (and that is probably too low). Now divide all that by £2.50 to get the number of coffees per hour you would need to sell. Its a lot. The key is selling more than coffee and having few 'dead' periods.leenewham wrote:Is that were the case Paddy, then how do Sugahill, Blue Mountain etc survive?
What about in the evening when all these 'young professionals' come home. Lots of people work from home these days too, they don't all work in town. Hos does East Dulwich support so many small businesses?
Remember BM closes about 7pm before many 'Young Professionals' get off the train. BM are trying hard, they do know the ED market and I hope they make it a success with less local business to support them than in ED . Being an independent they can more easily adapt to local conditions. But I would doubt it is yet a goldmine. A nice summer might have helped. They opened in more optimistic times than we have now. The big chains are looking to consolidation rather than expansion.
You may have a point. That lack of quality office accommodation may be limiting the market for quality retail outlets. In the regeneration of Sydenham Road we may need to think about what happens above the shop as much as what happens in it.
PP
What I think happened is that someone in Crystal Palace took the initiative and others followed suit! You need one brave soul to make the leap (Blue Moutain), then you need another slightly less brave soul to follow suit (this is what we're waiting for in Sydenham) and then there will be many others jumping on the bandwagon before you can say "gentrification"Thomas wrote:I for one have not got a firm grasp of how the finances of running a bar/ restaurant stack up and but I'm sure that its much harder to make a success of it than most people think. However, Crystal Palace does not seem to have a wildly different demographic than Sydenham, and what I am at a loss to explain is how is it that they have a number of restaurants up and running (covering different cuisines and budgets) whilst we here have rather less choice.
Crystal Palace is a great example - it's not as posh as Dulwich so it's closer to what Sydenham can aspire to, and it's full of thriving restaurants and pubs. When you consider that a big proportion of the clientele are likely to have walked or caught the bus over from Sydenham, and really their high street is no more picturesque or pedestrian & parking friendly than ours, there is absolutely no reason why Sydenham High Street could not follow suit.
My partner and I eat out at least once a week, and I'd much rather walk down the road then head over to Crystal Palace as we usually do.catscratch wrote:Points taken.
BUT
How many times a week are you prepared to eat out at this new HSBC eating out place?
Provided of course its somewhere you actually want to go to.
Once, either on Sat or Sun when we have a big breakfast, but would go there more if it was open in the evenings.catscratch wrote: How many times a week do you patronise Blue Mountain et al and for more than a coffee?
I don't like that term either, but unfortunately labels are necessary to summarise a group of people when posting on forums.catscratch wrote:
This notion that "young professionals" [surely I am not the only one who finds this term obnoxious?] are awash with cash to spend say twice a week in some chain restaurant in truthfully not a very pleasent high street
I doubt it.
It's not about being awash with cash, but I'm sure my partner and I are not the only couple in our 30's who eat out once or twice a week.. we're hardly high flyers.... and as That's Amore proves, you can be in a dodgy-looking location but not have it matter if the interior is pleasant enough.
Also, Blue Mountain proves that even being opposite the Greyhound is no deterant!
Personally I'm not fixated on the HSBC building, there are plenty of empty buildings in Sydenham which could be done up and used as an eaterie.catscratch wrote:
If anyone wished to start a decent independant restaurant they would not pick a white elephant building like the HSBC; a fiscal liability.
Plus, you are all assuming who ever owns it is willing to sell/lease/rent it and that the council are willing to accept change of use for a start..
No I don't, but then you don't know anything about my "business sense" either, and were quite happy to say I have nonecatscratch wrote: Bit of a snide dig at my post back there re my business,which I sold, and about which the poster knows nothing .So I will not comment further.
I wasn't trying to be snide, I was trying to put your comments in context (and I did say I was making an assumption) and to also make the point that I am not naive enough to think that you can just open a restaurant and it will automatically work. I was not having a dig at you - as you say, I know nothing about you - I was simply trying to say that perhaps your venture was either not best suited to the area or you didn't have enough financial backing or marketing to make it work. That's not snide, it's just pointing out that a business thrives or fails based on many different aspects. My apologies if I offended you.(edited this post as I seem to be incapable of typing words properly today.. very annoying!!)
Last edited by natbeuk on 1 Sep 2008 12:39, edited 2 times in total.
That's a very good point. Is there anything being considered as part of the regeneration work in terms of improving commercial use of property in Sydenham?Paddy Pantsdown wrote:
You may have a point. That lack of quality office accommodation may be limiting the market for quality retail outlets. In the regeneration of Sydenham Road we may need to think about what happens above the shop as much as what happens in it.
PP