New Aldi approved in Bell Green

[JamesSyd]

Just saw that permission has been granted for the old Toys R Us in Bell Green to become an Aldi.

[nicknack]

Yes! So now they won't need to demoloish the gasholders!

[JGD]

Except there is the small matter of the outcome of the Planning Inspectorate Inquiry in 2019.

And the development of an office block and yard with 180 jobs.

And a cafe

And a restaurant

And parking spaces for the Livesey Hall to relieve parking pressure for a quarter of a mile round the Hall.

And Traffic Improvement measures

And the awful vista of the unloved redundant ribs for those adjacent to the site.

[parker]

I wonder if they moaned as much about air quality when they built the Purley Way.

[nicknack]

Thanks for the answer JGD, interesting stuff - but judging by your reply on the other thread all of this was refused permission and has now been appealed against to be decided by an inquiry next year, so none of it is concrete yet, to coin a phrase?

I love the view of the gasholders, so 'unloved' is not strictly correct, although I do acknowledge I seem to be one of the few not the many on this!

[JGD]

I love the view of the gasholders, so 'unloved' is not strictly correct, although I do acknowledge I seem to be one of the few not the many on this!

May be a little more balanced than you think nicknack - there is a significant number of supporters of the view of the gas-holders - as demonstrated by the number of signatories to a petition to retain them and the efforts of SydSOC to successfully apply to have a local listing granted.

At the outset my BH and I were relatively neutral to their presence - even though they dominate the vista from the front windows of our house. Our views changed though when we realised how dis-benefited our immediate locale would be by the loss of the Traffic Improvement measures and the provision of the parking to the rear of the Livesey Hall.

Our view evolved - especially when both civic societies objected to the proposals and demonstrated woefully how little they knew of - or valued - the benefits of the redevelopment to which I refer.

And those feelings for the gas-holders moved towards them becoming unloved.

[perryman]

I met my love by the gas works wall
Dreamed a dream by the old canal
I kissed my girl by the factory wall
Dirty old town
Dirty old town

[Robin Orton]

A rat crept softly through the vegetation
Dragging its slimy belly on the bank
While I was fishing in the dull canal
On a winter evening round behind the gashouse
Musing upon the king my brother's wreck
And on the king my father's death before him.

[marymck]

In my memory I will always see the town that I have loved so well
Where our school played ball by the gas yard wall
And we laughed through the smoke and the smell.
Going home in the rain running up the dark lane
Past the jail and down beside the Fountain
Those were happy days in so many many ways
In the town I loved so well.

[JMLF]

This may be me speaking outside of my typical middle ground but to quote Graham Taylor for any football fans I would absolutely love it if people thought about the whole community rather than what would benefit them or fit into their personal wants.

It’s clear as day that no matter how many signatures there are for or against keeping the gas structures that:
1. The vast majority of SE26 probably doesn’t see the gasworks on a regular basis (hardly any of SE26 is in that area really)
2. The structures provide zero functional use for the community
3. They may provide some people with nice views they enjoy or nice memories but again, sure this is an assumption (but I imagine a half decent one) that the vast majority don’t know or care about the structures (as SE26 stretches away from. this point to cover a large area) regardless if they actively want an Aldi or not.
4. Like some other events that have occurred during the 5 years or so I’ve been in Sydenham it reminds me of The Windmil on Kirkdale or the Mural project - there were a select vocal number who wanted to keep the pub/keep the wall on station approach blank but actually the much larger number either don’t care, have no idea or want something useful to the community (whatever it is) rather than an empty useless space.
5. Just because there are some stats about people voting/making a stand for certain things - e.g: the gasholders - This does not actually represent the community as a whole as many either do not have knowledge of the forum, the Sydenham Society or other and therefore these “representations” are totally inaccurate and skewed for what Sydenham or SE26 wants as the vast majority of people are not consulted/have no idea/can’t acces these activities. To say that if people want a say they should join Sydsoc also isn’t helpful as this is a voluntary organisation mostly run by middle-aged or older middle to upper class white people who have spare time on their hands and the those people who do not fit this demographic would struggle to have the time or want to get involved in a society like this is my personal opinion.

Honestly, I would put a lot of money on the majority of people in random surveys of hundreds of people on the high street either not knowing, not caring or wanting something useful in place of the gasholders.

Have a lovely weekend all and apologies if this comes across a bit ranty - not meant to just honestly think that some of the schemes/efforts (not all - The Greyhound, The Post Office etc I think seem generally wanted by all and functional compared to an empty plot and a non full service post office) to save things on behalf of the community actually aren’t what the actual community want and the time/resources could be used to provide something new/functional for SE26.

[JMLF]

Just to give another example:
The Nando’s - Great addition to the area in place of a large empty shop. Great addition in terms of a different dining experience (not too similar to anything else in Sydenham) catering for different people - I.e: family dining, teenagers or younger people which Sydenham has little of.

But yet, regardless of all of the above, especially how it has occupied an empty large shop, been part of transforming (I don’t think that’s too strong a word!) Cobbs corner and how much of a success it has been, during planning there was a lot of reservation over the signing not keeping with the “conservation area” and concerns around delivery bikes which appears to have been put forward to the council as something that a lot of people in Sydenham wanted. I wholeheartedly disagree and think that again if you asked hundreds of random people the vast majority would rather a Nando’s over an empty shop and not care about the signage or potential delivery bike hoohah.

[Homecroft]

Interesting and refreshing read right there.
I am delighted to see what I would call progress in the local area.

[parker]

Just to give another example:
The Nando’s - Great addition to the area in place of a large empty shop. Great addition in terms of a different dining experience (not too similar to anything else in Sydenham) catering for different people - I.e: family dining, teenagers or younger people which Sydenham has little of.

But yet, regardless of all of the above, especially how it has occupied an empty large shop, been part of transforming (I don’t think that’s too strong a word!) Cobbs corner and how much of a success it has been, during planning there was a lot of reservation over the signing not keeping with the “conservation area” and concerns around delivery bikes which appears to have been put forward to the council as something that a lot of people in Sydenham wanted. I wholeheartedly disagree and think that again if you asked hundreds of random people the vast majority would rather a Nando’s over an empty shop and not care about the signage or potential delivery bike hookah.

The Nando’s situation about signage, bikes etc was another case of project fear, a small group of people did not want Nando’s in Sydenham because it was going to attract certain demographics of the community and a few bigots in some degree of standing/authority wanted to stop the whole thing in its tracks. Two words, Project, Fear.

Not sure for how long those with an attachment to the disused gas cylinders can continue to rattle on about traffic and fumes as reason not to turn it into more retail. If you’re that worried about pollution why live in London.

[parker]

Rod, would you like to explain why Mamma Dough is not facing the same opposition mindful it is next door to Nando’s?

[Pat Trembath]

For the record - that is if anyone on this forum is interested - the Sydenham Society welcomed Nando's. It did ask Lewisham if there was going to be any takeaway or home delivery as it was not clear on the original application. This was clarified by Nando's and accepted by Planning. At no stage was any objection made about takeaway or home delivery, although there was discussion about this in committee.

The hold up was not due to the Sydenham Society. It was caused by prolonged discussions between Nandos and the Highways Department about a 40 ft delivery space in Springhill required by Nando's which was eventually agreed by Lewisham.

The Sydenham Society has not objected to Mama Dough's - it looks forward to it opening as much as others in the neighbourhood.

[alywin]

Pardon me for being thick - and I hope I'm not going to open up a can of worms here - but why would objecting to Nando's, as opposed to anywhere else, be seen as "racism"? Or is it just another one of these spurious claims, and/or designed to intimidate would-be opposition?

[RJM]

For the record - that is if anyone on this forum is interested - the Sydenham Society welcomed Nando's. It did ask Lewisham if there was going to be any takeaway or home delivery as it was not clear on the original application. This was clarified by Nando's and accepted by Planning. At no stage was any objection made about takeaway or home delivery, although there was discussion about this in committee.

The hold up was not due to the Sydenham Society. It was caused by prolonged discussions between Nandos and the Highways Department about a 40 ft delivery space in Springhill required by Nando's which was eventually agreed by Lewisham.

The Sydenham Society has not objected to Mama Dough's - it looks forward to it opening as much as others in the neighbourhood.

Thank you! It all seemed a bit unclear at the time (perhaps I wasn't paying enough attention) but it's good to know that the SydSoc welcomed it and Mama Dough's.

On the subject of Aldi/the gasholders - I live at that end of Sydenham. I like the gasholders but accept that there is little point in keeping them, I wasn't keen on the proposed development (apart from the traffic management system). Aldi moving in to the former Toys R Us site seems great in the interim and I'm not opposed to seeing more development in the area - although I am concerned that there will be more traffic and make it even more awkward to walk in past the gasholders than it is already. What I would really like to see though, is a holistic approach to Bell Green that makes it pleasanter to visit as a pedestrian and cleans it up a bit. A decent development that thought of that and managed traffic better would get my vote.

[JGD]

Oh - we are very interested Pat.

For the record - that is if anyone on this forum is interested - the Sydenham Society welcomed Nando's. It did ask Lewisham if there was going to be any takeaway or home delivery as it was not clear on the original application.

Trouble is SydSoc cries wolf so often, it is probably unfairly assumed they are agin most applications for positive development.

In SydSoc's name there was and is a major campaign to preserve the gas-holders at Bell Green and resist the final-phase redevelopment there. Never mind the positive benefits delivered by the scheme for those of us who live there. No professed knowledge or acknowledgement of the traffic improvement measures or the provision of off-street parking for patrons of the Livesey Hall that would have provided parking easement for residents within a quarter of a mile around the Hall. There was zero consultation with non-Sydenham residents and zero accountability to real locals for SydSoc's actions.

For the OLSPN - a creditworthy campaign - however representation was made in SydSoc's name about the absence of insurance for the school. A completely fallacious statement that caused difficulty for the managers of the school and for which SydSoc had to make a trite withdrawal. But never an apology has appeared in print.

Did I forget to mention that there is now no barrier to prevent the gas-holders being demolished.

[TredownMan]

What’s the story with the mural? That all went quiet. Did someone block it?

[JMLF]

The mural unfortunately ultimately petered out due to the “conservation area” which the station approach resides in. The council were shown the designs submitted for the vote and said they didn’t want any of them really and that it didn’t keep with the “conservation area”. As a result it was very much that the council, not the locals would pick/decide the design and as that wasn’t the point of the mural project it was ceased. As the designs were based on the dimensions etc of that wall, they to a large degree wouldn’t have just been able to be used elsewhere and unfortunately there are few large canvases that are easily accessible (both to get permission and to physically access) one SE26 (hence one of the main reasons we probably won’t see a Lionel Stanhope “Classic” as seen at a growing number of SE train stations). The “conservation area” was something I did have a little go at with reasons such as some of the shopfronts and some of the shutters down the high street (all of which are within a conservation area of some sort according to council info) which are adorned with quite subjective art (organised by the council and Syd society / Syd arts I believe a few years ago) compared to a far less subjective or divisive typographic mural. But alas it didn’t do much and it probably just came across as me belittling the “conservation area” which on the face of it only seems to be in effect for the things the council does or does not want. Eg: the street art on the shutters as part of Syd arts fest, the turdis in station approach - all okay. The Nando’s signage, the wall mural - not okay. Probably a very black and white point of view which oesnt tell the intricacies of the “conservation area” but alas those are the experiences/information for me regarding it.