Mayow road/Sydenham road crossing.

[KEVD]

Hi,

Does anyone else find this pedestrian crossing annoying? The time you have to wait to cross seems very long. I have seen many people just running across the road nearly getting knocked down because the wait is so long.

[John H]

I think the people that have been killed or injured at the crossing will find it annoying. When the railings etc. were removed we were told by the "planners" it was to make the junction safer. The first day after the new layout was created there was a fatal crash there.

All the crossings in Sydenham have a deliberate delay which is used to act as a tourniquet on traffic. How do I know? Because the man from the Local Authority told us all so at a meeting.

[JRW]

It would be interesting to know whether a star crossing is possible. Pedestrians want to go diagonally, rather than multiple crossings. It has worked out in town; maybe we should host a trial?

[Mayowthorpe]

It would be interesting to know whether a star crossing is possible. Pedestrians want to go diagonally, rather than multiple crossings. It has worked out in town; maybe we should host a trial?

I thought it was already a star crossing. Both directions go at the same time.

[syd-gal]

There should be star crossings at all junctions where there are crossroads. They need one at Penge main junction.

[Jollylolly]

You can deffo do a diagonal at Mayow as it’s not a real crossroad. Or maybe I have been unknowingly dodging death for a few years

[mosy]

KEVD, there were a lot of complaints about the waiting time for pedestrians at all of the then new light crossings (Mayo Rd, post office, Syd station and the Syd Bookshop ones), which IIRC the council said were "currently" on timers and parts were coming from Europe to enable the timers to be changed. If they were changed, the change was imperceptible to me. Perhaps we should ask again.

John H, how is the long wait for pedestrians a tourniquet on traffic? The number and siting perhaps, but lengthy intervals surely aids traffic to keep moving doesn't it along with the progressive sequencing of the lights. Were the people at the meeting you mention satisfied?

Re star crossing, I can cross diagonally at Mayo and Newlands without needing to sprint, given the extra couple of seconds allowed, but they're T-junctions so only one road needs to be crossed. Cross roads are an obvious contender for diagonals, though granted all four stopping simultaneously must delay traffic = more pollution, so a toss up?

[vbsydenham]

The Council don't have any intention to tackle the chronic through traffic problem that Sydenham has. That's why the timings at this junction are massively in favour of the motor phases.

Unlike lots of other, more progressive areas of London and the UK, pedestrians are second class citizens on Sydenham High St. If you want to change that, join Living Streets, the London Cycling Campaign, Roadpeace etc and make a change at the ballot box.

[stuart]

AFAIR the consultation on the High Street revamp a few years ago was massively in favour of zebra crossings instead of traffic lights (whose purpose to maximise the traffic flow of motor vehicles passing through Sydenham at the expense of everybody else).

Lewisham & TfL rejected the consultation as this was not what they wanted and ran another but never published. I wonder why?

I'm afraid I tend to ignore the lights and make my own judgement as to when to cross. Fine for me who can scurry across on my own but no solution for family groups or disabled people.

Stuart

[Robin Orton]

I have a vague memory of being told that one of the reasons for having traffic lights at pedestrian crossings in Sydenham Road is because it makes life a lot easier for disabled or wheelchair-using pedestrians.

[mosy]

Thanks all for clarifying. Maybe lights are safer but no fun waiting indefinitely for anyone in the pouring rain or freezing cold watching cosy warm drivers go past. S'not fair

[stuart]

I have a vague memory of being told that one of the reasons for having traffic lights at pedestrian crossings in Sydenham Road is because it makes life a lot easier for disabled or wheelchair-using pedestrians.

I don't get the logic. A zebra crossing is not time limited. Traffic lights are. If you are disabled and slow then drivers may be seeing a green rather than you.

As we know, "Proceed with Caution" exists only in the Highway Code.

Plus, if you were right Robin, it was not the only fact given at the time that may not stand up to closer examination.

Stuart

[Robin Orton]

I assumed that the rationale was that disabled people (particularly those with a sensory impairment?) prefer to have a safe crossing period marked by visual and aural signs than to have to move out on to an ordinary zebra crossing and hope someone will notice them.

[vbsydenham]

I don't get the logic. A zebra crossing is not time limited. Traffic lights are. If you are disabled and slow then drivers may be seeing a green rather than you.As we know, "Proceed with Caution" exists only in the Highway Code.Plus, if you were right Robin, it was not the only fact given at the time that may not stand up to closer examination.

I assumed that the rationale was that disabled people (particularly those with a sensory impairment?) prefer to have a safe crossing period marked by visual and aural signs than to have to move out on to an ordinary zebra crossing and hope someone will notice them.

There was a subtle but very important change to the law a while ago that changed how zebras function. People in cars are only required to give way to pedestrians who have "begun to cross" the zebra, rather than defer to those waiting to cross. I can only imagine how intimidating this must be for someone in a wheelchair or with other mobility issues. Some more civility sacrificed on the altar of "smoothing traffic flow".

[stuart]

Some more civility sacrificed on the altar of "smoothing traffic flow".

Forgetting that people are the real traffic!

Stuart

[John H]

I don't get the logic. A zebra crossing is not time limited. Traffic lights are. If you are disabled and slow then drivers may be seeing a green rather than you.As we know, "Proceed with Caution" exists only in the Highway Code.Plus, if you were right Robin, it was not the only fact given at the time that may not stand up to closer examination.

I assumed that the rationale was that disabled people (particularly those with a sensory impairment?) prefer to have a safe crossing period marked by visual and aural signs than to have to move out on to an ordinary zebra crossing and hope someone will notice them.

There was a subtle but very important change to the law a while ago that changed how zebras function. People in cars are only required to give way to pedestrians who have "begun to cross" the zebra, rather than defer to those waiting to cross. I can only imagine how intimidating this must be for someone in a wheelchair or with other mobility issues. Some more civility sacrificed on the altar of "smoothing traffic flow".

This is true. There is widespread ignorance on how pedestrian crossings work. Many people do not realise, for example, that where the crossing is divided by a central reservation it is two seperate crossings. HOWEVER... my driving instructor taught me that it is bad driving to accelerate towards a crossing. It is bad driving not to notice a hazard, such as a pedestrian. In a contest between a car and a pedestrian the car will generally escape uninjured. Therefore you give way to pedestrians.

[alywin]

There was a subtle but very important change to the law a while ago that changed how zebras function. People in cars are only required to give way to pedestrians who have "begun to cross" the zebra, rather than defer to those waiting to cross. I can only imagine how intimidating this must be for someone in a wheelchair or with other mobility issues. Some more civility sacrificed on the altar of "smoothing traffic flow".

Really? That's appalling. So, I have to push someone in a wheelchair out onto the road and just trust that the driver isn't going to drive straight through them?

Whatever next? Will people already crossing a road into which a driver is turning no longer have priority over the vehicle?

[alywin]

There is widespread ignorance on how pedestrian crossings work. Many people do not realise, for example, that where the crossing is divided by a central reservation it is two seperate crossings.

Why, have they changed the law there as well? A crossing is still one crossing unless it's staggered, surely? (The definition of "staggered" being admittedly somewhat vague)

[John H]

There is widespread ignorance on how pedestrian crossings work. Many people do not realise, for example, that where the crossing is divided by a central reservation it is two seperate crossings.

Why, have they changed the law there as well? A crossing is still one crossing unless it's staggered, surely? (The definition of "staggered" being admittedly somewhat vague)

No change to the law. This was always the case.

[stuart]

That was my understanding too. OTH if you hit somebody on a zebra crossing you have no defence if you could have reasonably anticipated they would be there at the moment of impact. If they don't yet have a foot or wheel on or over the kerb and are waiting there is no obligation to give way. Though nearly every vehicle does.

I do find vehicles more respectful of zebras than traffic lights.

Stuart