Sydenham Society

[broken_shaman]

Really struggle to understand this forum at times. Just seems like a place to try and dismantle anything positive going on.

I joined because I was doing a stall at the market,quite a few years ago, but all I ever saw was moans, whilst what I experienced was a distinct apathy in turnout and trade. Not just my stall either. I've seen plenty of people with stuff to add move on, because the takings were so poor. We're talking struggling all day to get back the £35 you pay for a place here...
Eventually decided the market could never survive without support from the community and moved on, after giving it a good shot and even considering getting more involved in the organisation. Was just trying to start a little photography business while looking after my kids, after redundancy, and thought the local market might be a good opportunity (for that and the local area). The difference when I do a market in say Brockley or Ladywell is amazing. Seriously. People coming out and interacting and supporting stuff makes such a massive difference and helps things grow. Constant moaning kills things. Self fulfilling prophecy and all that.

Then there was a load of moans about pop-up shops (although that seemed to be one individual in particular - not sure what that was about, but the woman organising it seemed to be constantly attacked. Then undermining an interesting new enterprise because it replaced a craft beer place, to the point that the owners have to come on and defend themselves (great welcome).

Recently it's people who just can't get the concept that an Aldi will make residents lives worse because of traffic and rat-running in the area (not in your backyard it would seem) and keep harping on about gas towers.

And now, the Sydenham Society, which may have faults I guess, but it's at least proactive and provides some voice for people, whether it's your viewpoint or not, and I guess anyone can join and get involved and make it more representative?

I dunno. I'm left with the impression that Sydenham is a bit run down because of a lack of community involvement, something Forest Hill seems to do better.

Happy to be wrong of course, but that's how it looks. Perhaps it's more complex? I moved here in 2009, so I don't have decades of knowledge of the area. I realise this is a bit moany too, but it would be nice if it resulted in some positivity for a change. So see it as constructive criticism. Come on Sydenham. Cheer up and think big and stop taking pot-shots at people giving up their time to try and make it better or add something to the area.

[mosy]

A long post, broken_shaman, criticising people for wanting something better in the face of knowing that decisions ultimately will be made by The Powers That Be.

On the pocket markets, many of us made numerous suggestions on this Forum to make them a success but the council said outright that it had money only for admin to rent spaces (at the massive £35/stall, cheaper with own rig) monthly and no time or money resource beyond that. I find it odd that you blame Sydenhamites or this forum when we all wanted the market and its traders to thrive.

Pop-up shops are what they are intended for - to advertise and gauge potential trade. Clearly shops have to do regular trade to survive, so shops offering occasional antiques or handbag purchases would inevitably struggle given rent/rates here. Not sure what your point is? There have been ongoing questions about SEE3 budget money received/spent/left, but not about pop-up shops as such that I recall.

I think you might be missing the point re SydSoc. Whether they act, or are seen to act by the council, as representative of the wider community and consequently might be outweighing individual voices is important to know. Perhaps it's not of importance to you or something that concerns you which is fair enough.

[JayB]

Big thanks to growsydenham for obtaining a helpful reply from our council.That's encouraging. I am particularly concerned at "double counting " where conceivably i can use any civic society i am active in to set up a petition and also to lobby on behalf of my view and then respond again a second or third time as a completely separate individual ( or set of individuals, say on my road) there by completely skewing the council's impression of local feeling.

[Robin Orton]

How much weight should be given to 'local feeling' anyway? Is a plebiscite an appropriate way for determining planning applications?

[Sydenham]

Re: Robin Orton

You raise a good point there about local feeling. Very topical (national) debate at the moment about what respecting the 'will of the people' actually means in a representative parliamentary democracy.

If local feeling was always followed by our government (local or national) then this profession would still be in business. In my opinion I'm glad they are not.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/t ... spartanntp

[Pally]

How much weight should be given to 'local feeling' anyway? Is a plebiscite an appropriate way for determining planning applications?

They don't "determine" them! Their views/ideas/ pointing out any possible local impact etc simply informs a wider overview taken by planning committee!!

, I think " local views" should inform/feed in .. but decisions should be taken within that wider context , weighing up all pros and cons, legal requirements etc !

[KPR]

Broken Shaman - I think it really depends on what you see as positive developments. Personally I would rather housing is built on derelict land than it be left derelict - the interventions by Syd Soc seem to have the opposite effect. If you look at the quotes above from some of their planning submissions they really are the worst kind of NIMBY - petty, snobby and ludicrously superior. In short, they seem to think they own the place.

Aldi vs gas holders - I agree that the traffic between Sydenham and Catford is bad, but in my view that could be fixed with changes to road layout and better light phasing, etc. I don’t actually care if it’s Aldi or something else (housing possibly). But the gas holder campaign is utterly ridiculous and seemingly premised on a fantasy - that some developer will do with the Sydenham holders what was done in King’s Cross when the differential in possible sales prices is so large it would never be economic to do so.

Why have FH and Brockley become a hipster fantasy while poor old Sydenham still has a disturbing lack of smashed avocado and shops selling pointless rubbish (sorry - just to illustrate that not everyone necessarily shares fantasies of gentrification)? Beats me - Sydenham is objectively a much more pleasant place to live, with better green spaces and fewer sharp elbowed trustafarians (though their number is sadly increasing by the day, your average hipster still goes on and on and on about Hilly Fields in a way which reassures me that Brockley will remain the SE London epicentre of all that superficial crap, especially as it’s spitting distance from Goldsmiths where so many of them studied).

Seriously - I don’t think the markets work because the space is wrong, and the stuff they sell is usually crap. For a market to work you need to isolate the punters from a visible, cheaper alternative - so don’t put it in a small space on a high street. Do what they do at Horniman - people may know that they could get exactly the same fruit much cheaper in the shops, but the shops are a long way off, and you’re here now, so why not pay the best part of a tenner for some mushy raspberries and defrosted cheese?

[mosy]

How much weight should be given to 'local feeling' anyway? Is a plebiscite an appropriate way for determining planning applications?

You ask two questions, so
1) "Enough" weight should be given to local feeling to fill in the gap about important life aspects that simply don't show up on plans or models on which planners take decisions. At the moment, little notice is taken since the government is the prime dictator. So "more" weight than now. (Speaking countrywide, not just sydenham.)

2) That's a poison chalice question since neither absolute of one or the other is perfect. On the one hand nothing would ever get built if total control were handed to Joe Public, but on the other hand governments who see only their "bigger picture for the greater good " (purportedly), will and do undoubtedly ride roughshod over and railroad through whatever suits that picture with planners having to fall in step - and everyone else being told it's happening because we say so. Progress is often a double-edged sword.

[JayB]

How much weight should be given to 'local feeling' anyway? Is a plebiscite an appropriate way for determining planning applications?

The first of your questions is a matter of shifting sandsand possibly exactly why the council is consulting on what is a difficult and tendacious issue, but your second question implies a directly linear approach between local views and the result of the planning committee's decision - i was not suggesting this. In an imperfect world it will always be a matter of "taking into account" local views or nothing would ever be done. That is a long way from the mob rule some seem to fear is now lurking around the corner. Reactionary? You decide.

I must say i am interested in the implication that when SS respond alone with their viewpoint to the council, it is to be taken with authority coming from people with experience and dedication, where-as to also consider wider views at the same time simply constitutes an unsatisfactory and possibly ill-informed "plebiscite" -a solution which was never suggested .To follow through the logic, If no weight at all should be given to local feeling then surely that should apply to SS as well?

[TredownMan]

Re: Robin Orton

You raise a good point there about local feeling. Very topical (national) debate at the moment about what respecting the 'will of the people' actually means in a representative parliamentary democracy.

If local feeling was always followed by our government (local or national) then this profession would still be in business. In my opinion I'm glad they are not.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/t ... spartanntp

While I politely disagree with some of the society's views on what constitutes tasteful design or the balance of planning priorities, I don't think it's appropriate to compare the Sydenham Society to hangmen.

[Sydenham]

Nor do I, nor anyone I know (equate Sydenham Society with the hangman profession, that is).

roflmbao

[Sideofham]

Does the Sydenham Society have a strapline? If not I suggest- We're the Sydenham Society son, and we haven't had any dinner.

[Growsydenham]

Users may be interested to know that the proposed apartments at 219 Sydenham Road, near the Methodist Church, have been approved by the council at its recent meeting.

Proposals here:

http://planning.lewisham.gov.uk/online- ... 627785.pdf

[Robin Orton]

Does the Sydenham Society have a strapline? If not I suggest- We're the Sydenham Society son, and we haven't had any dinner.

Reference to 'The Sweeney' - I Googled it.

[Robin Orton]

At the SydSoc AGM this evening (very well-attended and very interesting) I asked whether the Society had adopted a policy to the effect that they should not use forums such as this to communicate with local people. The answer was no, but that individual officers and committee members, including some who in the past posted here in their official capacities, had decided to stop doing so. There were various reasons for this. They were unwilling to respond to hostile and negative posts from people who hid behind the veil of anonymity.(Hear, hear, say I). The tone of the forum was uncomfortably macho and combative, and women in particular often found this difficult to deal with. There were only a comparatively small number of regular posters, many of us clearly angry old men, and SydSoc officials weren't prepared to give a high priority, in terms of their own time, to responding to us.

Some people who spoke nevertheless recognised that there were many interesting and useful postings on the forum. Its role in helping to develop the proposals for the new mural at Sydenham Station was particularly acknowledged.

It would be interesting to hear what others think.

[TredownMan]

Thank you for the update Robin. That’s interesting to hear!

Id be interested to know if there was any discussion of the main complaint of forum users ie that the Syd Soc should be open and transparent about which planning processes it plans to intervene in, especially private dwellings.

[JRW]

Hi Robin, thanks for your helpful summary. I was also there, and indeed contributed to the discussion. I pointed out the useful content, but also agreed that the forum was often dominated by few voices, some of whom seem hostile. As a woman, I have found it difficult to be heard sometimes, but persist because I believe in the site's potential. We all love Sydenham, and want positive change and actions, but get distracted by the entrenched positions sniping at all comers. The Poodle Club has been a shocking example of bad behavior and aggressive messages to a very welcome new community asset.

I think it would be useful for everyone to review their recent posts. How many posts a week? What proportion of the discussion is made by you? Have you been respectful of other viewpoints? Everyone should be welcome to the discussion, and nobody vilified. If you are posting more than once, most days, perhaps back off a little, and allow other voices to emerge from the majority users of the site, who view discussions without logging in?

[Robin Orton]

Id be interested to know if there was any discussion of the main complaint of forum users ie that the Syd Soc should be open and transparent about which planning processes it plans to intervene in, especially private dwellings.

Yes, there was. It was acknowledged that the Society should be as transparent as possible about its interventions in planning issues, subject to resource constraints. This will be taken into account as it further develops its website and its existing presence on Twitter and Facebook.

I agree with what JRW has just posted.

[TredownMan]

Interesting poll though. Wonder what the figures would be in Sydenham. Quite high, I reckon.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/ ... ssion=true

[Pally]

[quote="Pally"]I have deliberately taken time to think about the points/reasons given at the Sydenham Society before commenting as my initial reaction was irritation which is never a good place to post from!! (Once sagain I was disappointed not to be able to attend!!)