Mural?

[Robinj03]

Really positive meeting and good to see you all. Happy to help any way I can

[Hissing Syd]

Bit belated, but heartfelt congratulations on what you're doing - keep going. My preference by far would be a piece by the incredibly talented Lionel Stanhope in the style of his Forest Hill walrus, but featuring a dragon, however tenuous the connection... Who doesn't love dragons?! (Cue a series of angry posts about how the Sydenham Society have a dragonist agenda, dragons burned down the Greyhound, Chris Best has got her eye on the iron throne etc etc).

Seriously, I'm sure whatever you achieve will be phenomenal, thank you for your efforts and hard work.

[JMLF]

Haha that made me chuckle. Lionel has already stated he would be making a submission but would not be doing his standard template due to the size/layout of the wall. I think a lot will just depend on what designs come up. It hopefully we will have at least a couple from professionals which will please people. There will obviously be the option to not select something aswell!

Planning to update everyone tonight and thanks again for the following/kind words!

[JMLF]

I’ll try and keep this brief but address the main things to take forward:

It was agreed that there would be a shortlisting process regardless of the amount of submissions

It was agreed that although the spec is straight forward, should anyone not include something (perhaps due to inexperience or other) and the design is to be shortlisted, the artist will be contacted for the info needed.

The shortlist will comprise of the selected pictures plus the option of no mural with a caveat that should this be the preferred option, the project will continue with a change of spec and/or location
The shortlisting meeting will be an open meeting and the hope is to additionally specifically invite locals involved with art/design
As the design will be key, once/if one is chosen then further discussions/clarifications could take place with regards to the pragmatics of the design becoming reality (e.g.: does repointing/a water barrier need putting into place before the art, are panels to put onto the wall be a feasible option for the artist or cost if fitting with design)
The voting will last a month to ensure more word of mouth and opportunities for those on holiday or who don’t use the internet or the channels we are advertising through to participate. Although this may feel/same longer than initially anticipated, it would be better in a community-sense and the expectation is something will still be happening/reported on every week or so therefore momentum will still be present and ongoing!

The plan is for a number of displays of the shortlist with a ballot box at different locations in Sydenham to support different demographics and areas - at time of writing we have 3 confirmed in TNG youth club (wells park road), Kirkdale Bookshop and Cherry and Ice. The hope is to add a few more to the list.

The three main secondary schools in the area have all been contacted in the hope the students will be involved in the process and a ballot box and shortlist will be available at the schools

The project will be “on show” so to speak at a number of community events such as the Sydenham assembly on Wednesday and the next Sydenham Film Club showing.
Taking into account the shortlisting meeting and printing out of pictures/delivering them to places etc. A rough estimate for the voting process to go live would be around 3-4 weeks (?!).

Other issues such as fundraising/crowdfunding were briefly mentioned but as the selected design (if one is) will now be in approximately 2 months, it was felt this wasn’t an urgent conversation to be had. Some ideas were:
In addition to online to have buckets in shops/buckets on the streets to get word out and to create a more community project feel
Possibly divide the mural into a grid and a cost of £x per square so whatever you contribute (or even your street!) you randomly get assigned a segment that you contributed towards
*some of these ideas were only if the feedback from the vote was low in terms of numbers of people who would contribute to a mural. If it was a decent number it was felt there would be a reduced need to complicate the project.

It was raised some thought needs to take place with regards to the actual figure which will depend on the chosen design plus any admin fees from the online fundraising plus any needed for materials/product for the wall to increase longevity if wanted/required etc.

Lastly pipe dreams ahoy - the idea that a potential yearly crowdfunded mural project could take place (maybe in line with the arts festival?!) and could be in a different location e.g.; Lower Sydenham was also briefly mentioned with anothee idea of this project wall possibly being a wall that changes in the future also e.g.: 5 years a vote could take place to keep or change. If this would be an idea for the future would we need to inform the designer that this may happen etc. And similarly if the design was damaged outside of any warranty would we need to agree beforehand with the artist that the public could try to touch up the work.

I think* that is roughly the main/important points (I stupidly left my notebook at work but didn’t want to wait til Monday so here we are!). If you were present and feel like anything urgent is missing please add, otherwise once again thanks to everyone for being involved in whatever’s capacity.

Keep your eyes peeled for the shortlisting meeting and be there if you want a say! Also please pass on the contact details for any local artists/designers which would be great to have their presence at the meeting.
Have a great weekend all,

Jon

[JMLF]

First - The next meeting (as agreed as a good idea at the last) will be focussed around ensuring submitted designs are appropriate and have what is needed to be put forward to a vote and reality! The other important thing to discuss is how to present the vote so to speak.
To see the designs and be part of the initial process before it goes “public”, please join us at The Dolphin, Thursday 22nd at 7pm. The meeting is expected to be straight forward and shortish finishing by 8.30 latest.

I have personally contacted a number of local artists from different backgrounds and those associated with the arts in the hope some may attend.

Update:
The project was promoted on Radio sydenham last week! (Give it a listen - great tunes)
2 of the 3 local secondary schools (still awaiting FH school) have pledged to hold the designs and a ballot box
TNG (youth club) on Wells Park have pledged the same
Kirkdale Books, Cherry and Ice are signed up and I have or am contacting other high street locations such as the syd centre, the lovely gallery, inkwa, the library and others to see if they would host a ballot (I am aware this may not be possible with smaller shops but perhaps some may promote the project in other ways)

We were present at Sydenham Assembly yesterday to briefly explain the project and show the designs for some of the first votes to contribute to the shortlisting process / overall vote. Positively a number of people present were already aware of the project and only 1 from 30 odd votes was for the wall to stay as it is.

Hopefully see some people next week and as usual please let me know if planning to come so we have appropriate space!

Thanks,
Jon

[JGD]

Very good progress on so many fronts Jon.

Any feedback from Lewisham on the Conservation Area boundary matter ?

Hope to attend the meeting in The Dolphin

[Newtosydenham]

Hi, My husband and I will be there next Thursday.

Thanks!

[JMLF]

Very good progress on so many fronts Jon.

Any feedback from Lewisham on the Conservation Area boundary matter ?

Hope to attend the meeting in The Dolphin

Have been in contact and the line as it stands is essentially, it isn’t expected to be a problem but the designs need to be seen to comment. I’ve also been told informally that if we canvas as many people as possible (which I think there is proof of, there is also less likelihood of the conservation area having issues with designs). Lastly, the specific woman i spoke to who is very supportive has had similar experiences with Brockley, after which when art was installed in various places everyone was saying how great it is - so it looks like Lewisham and The Arts etc. are more supportive of things like this when they do have to be involved to some degree then they were a few years back.

All quite positive with no real concerns as it stands on this point fingers crossed!

[JMLF]

Quick question:

Does anyone know any large scale walls near any of the other Sydenham Stations that would be owned by NR? I use to use Sydenham Hill a fair bit and have been down to Bell Green for various things. Only thing that springs to mind is the bridge to the right of Sainsbury’s and the left of lower Syd station. Do shout if anywhere else you can think of. Don’t think we have an abundance of large surfaces unlike some other nearby places but hey ho. Just a quick question!

[JRW]

Not owned by the rail companies, but by Lewisham council, the walls around the indoor bowling centre would be good. If it marked the turn to lower syd station from the main road, it would look great.

[JMLF]

On holiday so have switched off from the world somewhat!

Will reply as thoroughly as I can when I return.
For the time being regardless of anything else, the next step of awaiting signing off by NR and The Council is still being waited upon (I have emailed again for follow-up and it’s the council rather than NR we are waiting upon)

Will read all posts and reply next week!

[JGD]

Jon

Undoubtedly a well deserved break.

Take time to wind down - and don't re-engage too quickly - particularly if it is not essential.

Enjoy yourself.

[JMLF]

Sooo, I’ve heard back from Lewisham and it’s disappointing but also mildly confusing news.

They have stated they prefer the wall not to be painted as for historical value/aesthetic value of the wall etc. However they also said if it was to be painted they would prefer the design that essentially paints least of the wall and uses the framing/inlet (the S E 2 6 design).

They also suggested that they would prefer the plainer brick wall to the left of the “turdis” as looking at it (the southernmost part of the wall that boundaries the bridge, station platform and WC if looking on a map) to be painted. This is a much smaller wall/s (including both walls as it covers the corner) with, depending on your point of view, possibly less visible lines (anyone walking through the Passage to come out opposite the entrance can’t see any of the wall pretty much but then the longer section of wall has longer visibility from the high street). I don’t think this as a location is appropriate for the idea of this particular project and likely wouldn’t do justice to the designs submitted (which obviously have been done for specifications of the wall we have been looking at). That is just my opinion.

Main reason I’m disappointed I guess is that only through chance, a forum member mentioned the conservation area, at a point just before the deadline for submissions and designers had already been working to a spec. Considering the Sydenham society and council have been aware and overall positive about this project from pretty close to the beginning , it just would’ve been nice to have been aware of this as a particular sticking point before things progressed.

The information to me is a little confusing as it’s not a definite no but equally I wouldn’t want the project to continue with voting and involvement of people’s time/effort if actually it’s going to be a no for whatever gets voted for.

So not entirely back to the drawing board but a lot of mull over I think and unfortunately a good discussion or even another meeting with how to proceed with the project.

Kind regards all,

Jon

[Robin Orton]

At the SydSoc AGM last night, Chris Best (who assume you're in touch with) said (I think) that it had been discovered that the wall in question was half in and half out of the conservation area. Not sure how , if at all, that is relevant. She indicated that the council were well-disposed to the project and nobody at the meeting spoke against it going ahead.

[leenewham]

For this to happen it needs real support by local cllrs (not speaking against it going ahead isn't support!).

I've worked on murals and designs with councils, sometimes in conservation areas. Much of what is designed doesn't happen. Lots of it depends on the council officers and political will. If they get behind it, it will happen. I hope our local councillors really engage with this and push it. If so it has a real chance. Just letting the mechanism of the council work, interpreting it's own rules rather than judging community backed schemes on their individual merits will be the death if this and other projects.

Brick walls were once painted on all the time, but there is an aversion with councils to paint brickwork. But when it's done well, it can look amazing: http://www.breadcollective.co.uk/the-wa ... ney-wick/

All these ideas need real support (the Bread Collectives project was heavily supported), otherwise, they won't happen.

This is a brilliant initiative by Jon. Come on cllrs, please push this, make some noise! Get it on your websites, talk about it, retweeting things once isn't enough! Get it on the Sydenham Society website!

[TredownMan]

I dearly hope it goes ahead. Keep at it.

Shame this wasn’t thought through when they put the CA in force. Conservation areas are fine for suburbs (up to a point) but if you apply them to a busy high street which needs to continually evolve, refresh and grow then they are a recipe for stagnation and decay.

[JRW]

It is a shame you couldn't make the Syd Soc AGM, Jon, as you could have made your point there. There is an interest in coordinating the various mural projects, so we can bring the whole community together in this. Discussing the big picture would be a good way to go, as you have done a marvellous job of raising interest and gaining momentum, and evolving the project is better than abandoning it.

[leenewham]

I dearly hope it goes ahead. Keep at it.

Shame this wasn’t thought through when they put the CA in force. Conservation areas are fine for suburbs (up to a point) but if you apply them to a busy high street which needs to continually evolve, refresh and grow then they are a recipe for stagnation and decay.

I can't disagree with this more. If anything, it's the opposite, if planning is enforced (which is mostly isn't). BIgger issues are poor planning departments, officers, council and councillors. Conservations areas work really well in town centres, I've worked in a few of them on high street regen and it makes the job easier, even if some things don't get done. But that is down the whim of individual officers, not the fault of a conservation area.

[JGD]

They also suggested that they would prefer the plainer brick wall to the left of the “turdis” as looking at it (the southernmost part of the wall that boundaries the bridge, station platform and WC if looking on a map) to be painted. This is a much smaller wall/s (including both walls as it covers the corner) with, depending on your point of view, possibly less visible lines (anyone walking through the Passage to come out opposite the entrance can’t see any of the wall pretty much but then the longer section of wall has longer visibility from the high street). I don’t think this as a location is appropriate for the idea of this particular project and likely wouldn’t do justice to the designs submitted (which obviously have been done for specifications of the wall we have been looking at). That is just my opinion.

Jon

Jon

Have to agree with your view on how inappropriate and poorly thought through the council's proposals are..

Perhaps this needs a meeting to consider the way ahead - including taking a view on how "firm" the council's resolve is to hold their position.- are they to be persuaded that the original proposal along with whatever option receives the most votes can be accepted by them ? Or is their position that they intend to veto such an outcome and withhold their consent.

Alternative locations could be reconsidered and perhaps re-engage on options such as the PW gable.

A minor road block - and there are always other good options.

[Pally]

"They have stated they prefer the wall not to be painted as for historical value/aesthetic value of the wall etc. However they also said if it was to be painted they would prefer the design that essentially paints least of the wall and uses the framing/inlet (the S E 2 6 design)."

I am trying to work out the aesthetic value of that wall overall ... can anyone enlighten me? The history I admit to being completely unaware of!