Mural?

[JMLF]

Happy Monday everyone,

I have booked a meeting with the Network Rail contact on FEBRUARY 13th at 10 am (he doesn’t work evenings or weekends and I happen to have some time off that week so booked in the opportunity).

Obviously anyone who is free and want to look at potential sites/have input please join! (The railside wall as already thought by a few people has already been nixed as a location due to access/safety issues etc).

As this meeting is in the diary, think might be a good idea to have an initial meet up in the next week or two to start discussing how best to go through process of decision making and funding.

I’m thinking either midweek Tues 30th or Weds 31st in pub/cafe? Does that fit with anyone who is interested?

Unless anyone has an issue with it, I will start using the Sydenhamural twitter/gmail account to send out updates and get some more people in the know?!..

Please let me know if you have a strong preference for SEtwentysick or Sydenfam accounts instead.

I will give it until Friday before starting to use one unless people feel better to wait until meeting.

Lastly, although we will likely open it to other artists? Lionel has kindly asked for ideas for him to mock up an image - namely:
Colours
Any extras to the typical signage he has done - I know a greyhound has been put forward.

Please let me know more so can pass on!!

Any feedback/input would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Jon

[leenewham]

It was suggested using the bridge wall years ago for a mural based on the transition from it's use as a canal to it eventually being a railway. Cllr Best said the mural would be a distraction to drivers, which I find ridiculous. Another objection was that the wall needed some work on it so it was pointless doing anything.

We have worked on murals on bridges for other boroughs (distracted drivers isn't a problem), there are a few considerations:
• They can be painted or have to be removable panels as they are inspected.
• This bridge has natural panels which would be good to use (I'm not sure the wonderful large scale artworks by Lionel would work because of this as the wall isn't flat). The wall opposite the platform in the station would be good where the old platform used to be, if permission could be granted.
• Network Rail and London Underground can be difficult to work with, though I've found the latter to be far easier!

It would be great to get more high quality, relevant art and design in Sydenham. I think JMLF's idea of getting a group together is a great one. I hope it doesn't involve any local cllrs so it doesn't get political and is independent of the Sydenham Society and See3 (if that's still a thing), with this single focus. There are many creatives in Sydenham, this is an opportunity for them to shine. It would be good to just start something, even if small to get the ball rolling.

I wish you luck JMLF.

This link may help to some degree:
http://www.sustrans.org.uk/sites/defaul ... street.pdf

[brazil nut]

Hi there - my first post on this forum. I live just over the border in Forest Hill but have a sneak peek on here every now again. However this subject has prompted me to register and make this first post as I'm still smarting a bit from the whole Forest Hill experience. It makes me very sad actually that Forest Hill folk were sucked in and duped. Yes a mural is great and I'm a big fan of street art (I particularly like what's happening in Penge) so I don't begrudge Forest Hill a mural by any means. However what I do object to is that the Forest Hill mural campaign was, as I see it, an elaborate marketing campaign for SE23 Life. In my opinion the owner Chris Beach seized on the local appetite for a mural and used it, something that is a nice community thing, to boost traffic to SE23 Life and thereby boost his own business. That upsets me for three reasons in the main, firstly, because the motivation for the whole project wasn't getting the right mural for the community, it was about promoting SE23 Life, it was rushed through and we've ended up with a mural that I don't think represents or reflects Forest Hill's community; secondly, if Chris Beach hadn't wanted his business' name all over the project, then local assembly funding could have been accessed, but because the vehicle seeking funding (SE23 Life) was a commercial entity this money wasn't available, yet it would have been so easy to set up a non-commercial vehicle specifically for the project; thirdly a lot of folk in the Forest Hill community can't stand Chris Beach from the SE23.com days where he posted some really hateful stuff and upset/angered a lot of people, but now we're all gonna be reminded of him every time we drive under that damn bridge??!! I'm astonished and sad that people just went along with it, but it was a very clever ploy on his part, I'll give him that. But I've seen that he's trying to involve himself in this Sydenham project too, presumably to boost the profile of SE26 Life in a similar fashion, so just wanted to warn you guys about that and I would really think long and hard before you involve him in this project as it will be come a SE26 Life marketing campaign for sure, which shouldn't be the driver for a nice community project.

[JMLF]

Many thanks for the feedback from your experiences of the recent FH mural project.

This is really in the beginning stages of its life but secondary to the recent success of the impending mural (whichever way you feel, on the face of it it has been successful in funding and permission has been achieved in getting a locally voted mural up as far as I can tell) information on FH forums will be looked at as a basis I imagine.

I don’t know Chris or any other people who have commented or messaged me and as a unit going forward I’m sure anyone involved will take heed of comments both against and for how the FH project progressed.

My initial thoughts/actions are to:
- try to get involvement/replies from locals on both Sydenham forums that people use (some success!)
- to make contact with Lionel Stanmore to start up a conversation re: his work/thoughts as a general starting point although the project would welcome submissions from all artists (done!)
- to access contact at Network Rail re:permissions (success!)
- to set up some Sydenham mural related social media accounts ready to use (done!)
- to collate as many email addresses of local businesses as possible read to contact (done!)
- to set up an initial meeting for those interested in being involved/voicing opinion - pencilled in for TUESDAY 30th at 7pm onward at The Dolphin

Following this I would very much hope there will be a group of people/a number of people who are all acting in the best interests of the community in putting forward ideas and supporting this project come to life. Again, it’s not my decision but I would hope there won’t be any affiliation with sponsors or particular commercial businesses so to speak but obviously support from local businesses regarding their opinions, support and possible donations will be required I assume, alongside residents, to make this possible.

Many thanks again for the reply and obviously more than welcome to be involved as much as you’d like.

I would hope following the meeting next Tuesday everything will be very transparent, open and honest throughout this whole potential project.

[leenewham]

Well done to Se23.life/Chris.

I'm not sure why Brazil nut is so upset. Forest Hill has a mural, which he/she likes. Lots of locals people AND businesses contributed to is, which surely is a good thing. It didn't cost the taxpayer anything, which is a good thing. As Chris says, the forum he runs doesn't generate vast sums of income. It sounds like sour grapes and all to familiar (I had a similar experience where a first poster accused me of 'ripping off' see3 when I'd been giving my time for free).

If anything, we should be applauding and encouraging businesses to get involved. If they get some publicity or it helps their business, then it's also a good thing. Isn't it good to help local businesses?

[RJM]

I think some kind of mural is a great idea, I'm really pleased JMLF has put all that effort in.

But forum wars are deeply off-putting and really unhelpful, and if the plans start getting mired in those then I'm going to start avoiding all of it. Asking to link to SE26.life makes me uncomfortable.

[leenewham]

But no-one is asking to link to se26.life are they RJM? I don't have an issue if either forum leads on it (so far se26.life has lots of discussion about a mural).

Forums aren't bit money makers as I"m sure Stuart and others will testify. They use up far more time than they earn.

[RJM]

It's on the SE26.life thread about this (I read both), saying can social media link to that thread to boost traffic to the site. I just think that if it's a community project then it should cover both forums, not boost one in particular. I don't really care about which is the pre-eminent forum for the local area, I think that SE23 have done a great job so far in fundraising and I'm really impressed by it, so I'm not wanting to denigrate that in any way. I don't personally know any of the people involved.

I was mainly just wanting to plea to keep it positive and not start snarking about other forums (anywhere, when did flame wars ever help?), then defending them, or really engaging in any kind of us and them rivalry. It'll work best if everyone works together.

[Sideofham]

After reading the previous posts in this thread I have come to the conclusion that this issue needs the full Panorama treatment, I suggest a 3 hour long expose entitled- The murky underbelly of mural painting in the suburbs.

If it ends up going to the big screen Al Pacino could play the frustrated muralist and Steven Berkoff could star as the power crazed local forum administrator!

[JMLF]

Glad that this topic continues to have people talking in a relatively positive manner regarding the mural and going forward.

As previously noted I have some rough ideas in my head but want all others who are involved to have a say before I/we start doing anything (hence asking a few times unless anyone objects that I will use sydenhamural as the email/Twitter etc. although I cant imagine anyone would be up in arms if I did!)

Generally speaking I would like to think those involved will choose to promote/link to both website forums (as well as the “social media” accounts) and anything that can’t be done on one forum but can on the other could maybe be supported though a 3rd party if simple and quick and reduces people’s concerns. E.g.: linking this website to a surveymonkey site rather than the other forum which has a voting function (as an example - maybe STF does have a few nifty functions that I haven’t discovered but hopefully that makes sense).

If at all possible I hope the aim will be for everyone to be aware of all ongoings and be content in the manner in which to access things, even if it ends up taking a bit more effort/time!

[JMLF]

Sideofham - Who would you be? Kevin Bacon?

[stuart]

E.g.: linking this website to a surveymonkey site rather than the other forum which has a voting function (as an example - maybe STF does have a few nifty functions that I haven’t discovered but hopefully that makes sense).

No need. There is an inbuilt survey poll on this site that has been used many times. Currently it can only be invoked by Admin. If you think we need to poll on any question I would suggest you PM the Admin.

Here is an example of one: https://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic ... 15&t=12389

HTH,
Stuart

[The Clown]

If it’s as professional as Lee’s - which is utterly wasted being hidden IMO, I am all for it.

Not keen on more graffiti in the core shopping areas.

I don’t think it suits Sydenham, which could be so tasteful if it just tidied up a bit.
Sydenham Road could look very smart with some more trees, removal of posters and some decent signs and lucks of paint.

[Timbo79]

I really like the mural idea - does it have to be on a network rail site? How hard would it be to get it on the side of a private property? I'm thinking the side wall facing the railway as you come across the bridge from the roundabout - it's a much bigger space than those pictured earlier and more of the foot and road traffic entering from that end of town would see it. I think it's on the side of the bulding property world is in. I think there's a really old painted advert there but from memory it's barely visible any more - does anyone know what it was advertising? I'm afraid I'm a relative newcomer!

Or could we have 2?! One by the station and a big one up high? Got to dream big!

[JMLF]

Morning Timbo, glad for more input

I think that wall (along with a few others in Syd) would be brilliant and speaking of more murals - I’m gathering information about non-commissioned based projects (free!) involving street art which I intend to pass on to the forums/Sydenham arts/Sydenham Society when collated enough information. As I know very little about this type of thing and the idea/goal is to have a welcome to Sydenham type of mural which will have to be commissioned, I’m solely focusing on that at the mo!!

On the face of it, the benefit of these projects is free art which is upkept by the artist/company/event offering the work. The possible negative (I imagine for some people) is that the artists have free reign to express themselves with whatever they choose. I personally support this type of thing and as you can see in Penge or Dulwich for example, events/permissions like these have lead to a range of high quality artworks of different styles across the neighbourhood.
Here is a link to some examples in Penge:
https://inspiringcity.com/2018/01/11/pa ... in-london/

I am actively finding out how they get permissions, how a community/council has actively chosen to do this (as art even if a high quality is subjective so won’t be everyone’s cup of tea) and a few other questions that popped in my head (e.g.: due to health/safety/insurance do these artists typically paint at street level or do they do sides of tall buildings/harder to access areas -e.g: the location you mentioned)

Generally speaking it sounds like Network Rail would be the easiest people to work with re: permissions as they have collaborated with artists in the past and I’ve kindly been given a direct contact who has essentially said that as long as it’s not trackside or similar - meaning only access during times when the trains are not running and there is a lot of extra conversations/meetings/red tape to try and sign that off (understandably) - it is pretty much fine/permitted!

With buildings owned by others, again assuming, it becomes a bit trickier as you have those that own the property, those that potentially rent the property, potentially a different freeholder/leaseholder (?) and possible council involvement aswell. Again I’m just theorising with no real evidence unfortunately as don’t know much about this type of thing!

I will look into that site as I am trying to take into consideration any input but feel possibly due to points made above:
1. possible greater difficulty with permission,
2. greater difficulty to access - the FH mural will require ladder, paints, volunteers to scrub the wall down beforehand in prep etc

It may be far more difficult than the initial potential locations proposed.

Will see what I can find out!

[Rachael]

As someone who saw the Forest Hill Mural project evolve from the start, I’ll share this observation, which may be helpful. The polls on the location and design of the murals were the most actively participated in the forum’s history by a big margin. So when the time came for the crowdfunder, there was already a large and engaged group of forum members ready to put their hands in their pockets. Apart from Chris’s very generous donation, we also had a couple of decent sized donations from local businesses. I think it helps people have confidence in a project when they see that sort of activity. I think we would have fully funded it even if all the donations had been more modest (some people complained they didn’t get a chance to donate before the target was met!) but it might have taken longer to gain momentum.

[Newtosydenham]

Does anyone know who did the Kirkdale Mural?

Could be another option?

[JMLF]

Yes, it was the excellent Lee Newham who i have already been in contact with who has added a few comments to this thread already.

Beautiful stuff in my opinion but unfortunately due to other commitments/time etc he shan’t be involved in this project too much.

[JMLF]

As someone who saw the Forest Hill Mural project evolve from the start, I’ll share this observation, which may be helpful. The polls on the location and design of the murals were the most actively participated in the forum’s history by a big margin. So when the time came for the crowdfunder, there was already a large and engaged group of forum members ready to put their hands in their pockets. Apart from Chris’s very generous donation, we also had a couple of decent sized donations from local businesses. I think it helps people have confidence in a project when they see that sort of activity. I think we would have fully funded it even if all the donations had been more modest (some people complained they didn’t get a chance to donate before the target was met!) but it might have taken longer to gain momentum.

Many thanks for the input Rachael. The plan is to let local businesses and people know this week through use of email/Twitter/Facebook to get people in the know a good while before design submissions, decisions, votes and ultimately the crowdfunded money bit eeek!

[Bovine Juice]

Hi JMLF

I live in Penge and am reasonably active within the local community (Chair of the Penge Tourist Board and member of the Town Centre Team). You asked how people get permission from the council/community. Permission hasn't been necessary from the council, mainly because Bromley has very little interest in its northern tip, but also because the artwork has almost all been created with the permission of the individuals who own the walls, fences, etc. There are a few who disagree but in general, Penge has really embraced the street art. It looks great and makes us stand out next to our chums over the border in Kent. We also have quite a number of artists living within the community which probably helps. I can't comment on Lewisham council's relationship with Sydenham but I have always seen Sydenham as a similar place to Penge and suspect it would b embraced there too.