What *are* they doing to Dartmouth Road?

[alywin]

I went down Dartmouth Road in the bus today, for the first time in ages. Near the swimming baths, the pavements seem to have been widened so much that there's no longer sufficient room for two buses to pass without mounting the pavement.

Can someone explain this to me, please? It seems downright dangerous to me.

[appletree]

I have been bewildered since the plans were first publicized that instead of widening the road, which was so obviously necessary, they have narrowed it.

Parking needs to be forbidden as the cars parked in front of shops cause endless delays. Nothing seems to have been done to alleviate the major disruption to bus routes, and I can't see this stopping when the works are finished.

[Moonpig]

I agree- I have no idea why the pavements need to be so wide - it is the road that clearly needed widening and yet they seem to have done the reverse! Perhaps it is so that more cars can park on the pavement and class it as private parking?!
I dread to think of the chaos that this will cause an already congested road- weekends are the worst when cars park on the single yellow lines too.
I guess it is too late to do anything about it now...

[syd-gal]

This has been very controversial for many weeks. Alywin consider yourself lucky if you've only been down there once recently. It's been awful for months, with bus stops closed, then new ones opening and then closing.
Forest Hill library has quite an extensive exhibition on the plans, worth looking at.
But everyone agrees it is a complete and utter mess, waste of money and won't help at all.

[leenewham]

Are they allowing cycling on the pavement? If not it makes cycling even more dangerous.

[Parker1970]

Are they allowing cycling on the pavement? If not it makes cycling even more dangerous.

I drove down there this morning, it looks like perhaps it is not pavement widening but a cycle lane being put in..

[rustya]

here is a reply from the council...

Thank you for your email.

It may be helpful if I provide some background to the project, which is a £1.5m scheme to improve the public realm and road safety in Forest Hill. The project is funded by Transport for London, but it has been prioritised and designed by the Borough following a local campaign and design workshop with the local community. The current project design has its roots in a workshop that was held in 2014 with The Forest Hill Society and SEE3. It has since been through three rounds of public consultation and has received generally positive support from the community and the local assembly. The general concept of the scheme is to improve the series of public spaces that makes up Dartmouth Road, and to link these together with a street function that reduces traffic speeds, and prioritises the pedestrian environment.

The scheme has been developed over a two-year period, and has been through public consultation at each stage of its development, at concept, preliminary and detailed design. That has involved local stakeholders such as The Forest Hill Society, SEE3, V22, Forest Hill Traders, Forest Lodge Residents, local councillors, and the general public. The scheme design has evolved over that time, not only in response to input from the local community, but in response to the design process, including the application of design standards, safety audits, and dialogue with utilities and TfL buses .

The design has to balance many conflicting priorities. It is a conscious design decision to keep buses in the flow of traffic, as this helps to improve bus journey times and acts
as a way of slowing traffic speeds to support the new 20mph limit. The narrowed carriageway also reduces speeds and allows for wider footways with easier crossing at key points. The design therefore prioritises pedestrians, bus users and road safety.

You can find information about the Dartmouth Road scheme on the web site at http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/inmyarea/reg ... structure-
projects.aspx.

I hope this is helpful.

regards

Imogen Payami

Casework – Transport
Regeneration and Place
London Borough of Lewisham
4th Floor | Laurence House | Catford | London SE6 4RU
Tel: 0208 314 2235 | Fax: 020 8314 3137|
www.lewisham.gov.uk

[appletree]

Yes, it certainly acts to slow traffic if it takes 20 inutes or more to get down Dartmouth Road! How they can consider that a positive is hard to see tor those of us who would like to take the bus to work.

[JayB]

I waited a full 26 minutes for a 176 to work into town at Forest Hill/London road stop on Thursday night-making the total journey time Bell Green to Waterloo Bridge to over two hours. Unbelieveable! The bus (already hopeless) had been stuck in the traffic on Dartmouth Road for ages. I am amazed TFL are involved in these plans as they have already written to me via the Mayor's office acknowledging difficulties with the 176 reliability and the unacceptable pace of its journey.

[alywin]

Yet I managed Cobbs Corner to East Dulwich in 15 minutes the other day ... Better than the time I started from Penge and only just managed to transfer onto a different route at Denmark Hill with only a matter of minutes to spare on my Hoppa fare ...

[Rachael]

Do bear in mind that the works on Dartmouth Road are ongoing and won’t be finished until February. So whatever delays there are now are not necessarily how it’s going to be henceforth.

The plans were debated at length in SE23 and a lot of feedback given in consultations. A lot of the concerns were about parking. Even before the works started there were persistent problems with illegal parking half-pavement parking on the single yellow lines at the Forest Hill end, which can cause bottlenecks because the buses can’t pass. The narrowing of the road will mean people can’t actually do the half-on-the-pavement parking that has caused problems in the past. They would be blocking the entire carriageway and even the most brass-necked of illegal parkers will baulk at that. There will be double yellow lines replacing the current single yellows and new official parking bays. The problem wasn’t the width of the road per se - it has always been wide enough for two buses to pass easily IF people park properly. It remains to be seen how successful these measures will be, but there is actually a reason why they are doing it as they are.

[syd-gal]

It's ironic that Lewisham council are making so many cut backs, e.g on rubbish collection, yet all this money is being 'wasted' on Dartmouth Rd.

[Rachael]

It's ironic that Lewisham council are making so many cut backs, e.g on rubbish collection, yet all this money is being 'wasted' on Dartmouth Rd.

Why is it a waste? The footpaths were all in a perilous state: narrow, sloping, broken paving. Much worse than the footpaths on Sydenham Road when they were repaved. They are putting in more level paths, new crossings, extra bus stops, new parking bays It’s work that’s been desperately needed for years. Yes, money is tight. But Lewisham can’t put off all capital projects. They have to strike a balance. And with so many new traders and independent businesses (and a very active traders association) on Dartmouth Road, I imagine a bit of investment now is very well timed.

[perryman]

It's ironic that Lewisham council are making so many cut backs, e.g on rubbish collection, yet all this money is being 'wasted' on Dartmouth Rd.

Could not agree more.
There is a good case for widening the pavement opposite Sydenham Pk Rd - it is near single file along there and it is right next to Sydenham school so gets busy. But I'm not sure this is part of the project.

The rest of the project is a waste of money, and the council seem to have been bullied into it.

[stuart]

I walk to FH Pools regularly and the footpath near the crossing was so narrow with a bulging wall on one side and the railings on the other that the children had to go single file. It was very unpleasant. Now its great.

I am upset that people resent trading a little road space to make walking to Forest Hill a much more pleasant experience. If more people did that then we wouldn't need to trade so much space to parking - which is the real problem buses have to put up with. Or am I the only one to see it that way?

Stuart

[Robin Orton]

As a pedestrian I welcome wider pavements and a pleasanter street environment. As a driver I welcome the prospect of less congestion (provided the parking bay/double yellow line system is properly enforced.)

I thought the money for this project (or most of it?) came from TfL rather than Lewisham?

[Pally]

I walk to FH Pools regularly and the footpath near the crossing was so narrow with a bulging wall on one side and the railings on the other that the children had to go single file. It was very unpleasant. Now its great.

I am upset that people resent trading a little road space to make walking to Forest Hill a much more pleasant experience. If more people did that then we wouldn't need to trade so much space to parking - which is the real problem buses have to put up with. Or am I the only one to see it that way?

Stuart

Agree with you Stuart.

[vbsydenham]

Yes, well said Stuart

There is inevitably going to be disruption when works are ongoing - But these changes are clearly for the better so people should try to be more patient.

[Sydenham]

But they do seem to be going on for a long time. That to me is the frustration of all this. Not sure when they started but I'm sure it was before the Summer holiday season - that's part of the issue with works. If they are done quickly they are quickly forgotten about and people live with the new design - take too long and it gives us all something to think about and ponder.

[stuart]

Yes - all UK roadworks appear to take ages. I guess keeping part of the road open all the time makes it much more difficult and costly. I note most european countries don't do this or even patch roads much. They just close the whole lot, rip out the old to the bedrock, slap in the new and are open again in weeks rather than months.

Of course that would inevitably generate even more objections over here ...

Stuart