Sydenham too tatty for Caffe Nero

[mosy]

Councils get ...[clip]....

Many thanks for all the info in your post (posted at 11.20am today).

My thought is that if bidding for money it has to be for something new, not just same old. Ages ago, you wanted the historic green dragon emblem to symbolise Sydenham. I questioned the emblem as being too obscure (except for Chinese restaurants) but did and do strongly agree that Sydenham needs an identity rather than being merely a TFL through route or cheapest last parking place for train pricing zones. Maybe identity is a discussion that should be resurrected.
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Generally in my view, a lot depends on what the aim of a high street is one's view. In mine, Sydenham's meets the traditional objective of suiting the needs of its day-to-day shoppers and has some specialist shops, which all contribute to its community feeling. I'd hate to lose that.

[leenewham]

Just in case anyone wants to know what Mosy means by 'Green Dragon': https://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic ... ragon+logo

I remember you questing the identity and what would happen if it was adopted by Sainsbury's! I don't think St George's dragon is associated with Chinese restaurants. Neither would this one. I think you overthink thing at times Mosy!

But I'm not interested in getting involved in this again, It's much better doing things that go somewhere with an outcome.

[Ghlpc]

[quote][/quote]I agree, I'm not a fan of chain coffee shops other than Gails as they do incredible cakes and nice tea in a pot and I consider it a real treat. I go to Crystal Palace BECASUE of the independent shops. I go to Dulwich Village because of Gails. I got to Forest Hill because of Bunka and Aga's Deli. I go to Beckenham because of their Charity shops and markets and cinema, plus they have really good restaurants, but the ones I like aren't chains.[quote]

I'm wondering, as I'm no expert, but in terms of a growing high street what comes first...the chains or the independents? Or is a mixture of both? You mention that chains will drive up rents but isn't it the case already that the units in Sydenham are ridiculously high anyway?

I say this because all the places you mention Lee, Forest Hill, Beckenham, Dulwich and Crystal Palace have an abundance of chains between them!

Do we oppose chains in the hope independents of a high calibre will open up gradually in Sydenham? I think we'll be waiting a long time.

Someone on here mentioned they'd rather empty shops than chains...I dont understand this.

If chains want to invest that's a good thing, if your a fan of them or not. Maybe someone thinking about Sydenham, then seeing a few decent chains pop up, will encourage them and other business to open up....as it's a sign company's are willing to invest.

[vbsydenham]

It's also unbelievably naff. Café Nero's "offer" is like a coffee shop from the late 90s. Why would you want to welcome such mediocrity to the town?

[stuart]

It's also unbelievably naff. Café Nero's "offer" is like a coffee shop from the late 90s. Why would you want to welcome such mediocrity to the town?

Agreed. Does anyone seriously prefer Cafe Nero to, say, Sugahill?

Sugahill, we have got. Its major problem is there are not queues down the street to get in. If there were then that triggers competitive coffee and tea emporiums to set up shop in Sydenham more powerfully than any demographic algorithmic code.

I wonder if those that call for better shops in Sydenham actually use our existing 'better' shops? Would better shops included treasures like the long lamented Paulros? Not the most graceful frontage on the High street but possibly the most useful to a young parent. Do they see Sydenham DIY or our two Greasy Spoons as assets or liabilities?

Stuart

[syd]

I wonder if those that call for better shops in Sydenham actually use our existing 'better' shops?

Quite. There have been numerous calls for a Pizza Express in SE26. This in a neighbourhood with possibly the best Italian Restaurant in London! Is Caffe Nero going to make better coffee than 161 Kirkdale?

My suggestion would be that people see these chains simply as marketing monuments - where as you have to live in Sydenham and use Trattoria, use 161 or Sugahill to know they're good.

If you're trying to sell a house (as an estate agent or a seller), a chain is something quick you can point to that everyone understands, whether they know the area or not. They are a brand everyone knows.

But I suspect often people see these chains on high streets as improving their investments rather than something they might actually...you know...use.

my frustration comes from the main store on the high st being empty. It's a really depressing and shitty thing to see everyday and to say no to any multinational chain cause you don't like it is ok but makes no sense to me as the footfall from Nando's would help the high street and surrounding shops and send a signal to other investors large and small. I really don't understand how you can't see this.

[stuart]

[my frustration comes from the main store on the high st being empty. It's a really depressing and shitty thing to see everyday and to say no to any multinational chain cause you don't like it is ok but makes no sense to me as the footfall from Nando's would help the high street and surrounding shops and send a signal to other investors large and small. I really don't understand how you can't see this.

I think you may be mis-reading what Rod and I have been saying which can only add to your frustration. I have strongly argued that people should not object to any application because it is not "their type of shop/brand". Rod has also made clear that while he doesn't like some brands and has no problem with empty premises - he is not going to object to the Nando application.

I trust that clears up things and you could possibly better target those that have.

You have posted that Lewisham should heavily invest in Sydenham. Can you clarify what investment you think will make a difference? Sorry to keep asking but its good solid ideas and expertise (albeit with some money) that may make a difference. Money without is a waste. We have seen too much of that.

Stuart

[Pally]

Again, what are you asking Lewisham to spend the money on in Sydenham

They could revisit the pocket squares which are poorly designed, invest in the market and run it properly, pop up shops, business advice, local town branding or lower rents to encourage new businesses, shop front grants which can and do make a difference, encouraging a local bid group, marketing the area, creating a town centre plan, more trees.

Our cllrs should be fighting for the money rather than staying quiet to allow all the funding to fo to Catford and Deptford.

I agree that the Co-op is a massive issue, but disagree that it's just the wrong size. With the right business and positioning it could work. There are many other similar size supermarkets that work.

Lee's suggestions are eminently sensible and he clearly has some expertise! But as Stuart has said we have seen too much of money without expertise...and sadly, I suspect from Lee's previous comments at various times, he has given up! Shame really that formed whatever reason that expertise has been lost!

I love Sydenham for its variety of shops, green spaces, transport links, events, coffee shops, Trat Raff, Dolphin, Golden Lion etc. (I still mourn Paulro's Rod!!) However I still feel that it is "stuck" and that despite money that was available a few years ago (Portas) , it has yet to build a sustainable strategy that moves forward.....and it is very frustrating to hear that nothing is being allocated ...if that is the case!

[stuart]

They could revisit the pocket squares which are poorly designed, invest in the market and run it properly, pop up shops, business advice, local town branding or lower rents to encourage new businesses, shop front grants which can and do make a difference, encouraging a local bid group, marketing the area, creating a town centre plan, more trees.

Our cllrs should be fighting for the money rather than staying quiet to allow all the funding to fo to Catford and Deptford.

I agree that the Co-op is a massive issue, but disagree that it's just the wrong size. With the right business and positioning it could work. There are many other similar size supermarkets that work.

Lee's suggestions are eminently sensible and he clearly has some expertise! But as Stuart has said we have seen too much of money without expertise...and sadly, I suspect from Lee's previous comments at various times, he has given up! Shame really that formed whatever reason that expertise has been lost!

Yes - Lee's are great suggestions. They would be for sustaining footfall. The major problem is the deserted Co-op. If we could crack that then much would follow including the footfall to sustain.

Its easy to be negative that the store is too small/big and the likely grocers have interests elsewhere. Which got me thinking. The one thing that store has is visibility. It can look so good from coming up the road. Plus I think most of us would agree credible competition to Lidls would make a huge difference to the practical attractiveness of Sydenham. Maybe not so beneficial to the bottom line of property investors as a branch of Foxtons - but hey!

What is great about so many continental towns is the covered market. Not markets as we have known them in, say, Penge or Lewisham - but more like Borough Market with a wide variety of interesting foods imaginatively displayed in a clean, green well lit retail area. The dozen or so stalls having so much greater impact than any individual. A true and better successor to the Co-op. And one that is warm and dry 365 days a year for habit making - unlike the occasional pocket markets.

There would be huge problems to overcome. First the herding of cats to cover the substantial rent/rates. Secondly why would a successful market trader guaranteed income at, say, Borough Market, take a chance on Sydenham?

I can think of a solution or two that might work with a co-operative landlord (who is that?). People around here can probably think of better ones - or a completely different idea. Anyway that's my flag up the pole. Is anyone saluting?

Stuart

[Ghlpc]

Well, I must be one of those bland conformist people then because Ive eaten in Nandos and and had coffee in Nero, and quite liked both!

But then again I love and eat in trat raf and have coffees in sugar hill and on the hoof too.

My point is that it gives people like myself, who im sure there are many in the area, choice and variety. Also it will provide healthy competition for existing businesses and maybe up their standards too.

[syd]

As I'm a dreamer I think it would be perfect for a pop up with right incentives

What is great about so many continental towns is the covered market. Not markets as we have known them in, say, Penge or Lewisham - but more like Borough Market with a wide variety of interesting foods imaginatively displayed in a clean, green well lit retail area. The dozen or so stalls having so much greater impact than any individual. A true and better successor to the Co-op. And one that is warm and dry 365 days a year for habit making - unlike the occasional pocket markets.

This is an idea I would 100% back - I’d sign anything I’d need to sign to get it done, lobby and cojole. In short it’s a great idea.

It’s local, it’s national, it tackles obesity and promotes healthy living and community and places people on the high street. It would also draw people from neighbouring areas. I'd be keen for it to make the food affordable though - often Borough Market offer loaves of bread for £12. It'd be great of it were something every one would consider using.

https://www.boxpark.co.uk/about/

[conti16]

I am some what disappointed that the high street of Sydenham has not managed to get better ( been here since 2009).
A few good changes but nothing drastic and everything seems so slow while neighbours are booming. It feels that people here don't want the change but happy to carry on in the mediocre way.
I have managed to get around the high street arepresentative of Caffe Nero but sadly I was told it's still too Tatty to have such.
Would like to see changes for a better high street but feels I have to move to enjoy a better place

I'm disappointed and somewhat suprised to hear this. Have you ever been to some of the places like ramsgate in Kent where cafe Nero has invested and tell me that is better than Sydenham! Was the person a representative from their property department?

Anyhow I cherish and love our individual coffee places like Sugarhill, blue mountain, kente, on the hoof, brown and Green - I would choose these any day of the week!

Comparing Kent to Sydenham is not really the best possible example.... The guy who visited and I personally met is the guy who is looking for new commercial for Nero and have worked for them for over 15 years. I am actually impressed by them as the representative kept his words to physically visit the area. I never said that Nero is the best coffea on the market but it has the funds of being supported by other chains oppose to independent whereby they have to really work hard to cover the rent, pay the personal before they are actually make a profit. Have you got any idea how many coffe you have to sell to close the day in balance? I would love to see only independent shops in SE26 hence why I buy my fish only from Billings and when I am off work I go to on The Hoof but the crude reality is that people are not investing in the area and this is a problem. I was in Joanna this morning in CPalace and while driving around for parking I spotted 4 new places, this is shows that people believe in SE19 or have confidence in it and take a risk in it but not in Se26. The opening of the Overland was brilliant, lots of North London people moved in but then it felt it stopped there. Why Peckam is a hot spot? Why a 3 bed terrace house of 1500 sq ft cost £1.2M and a 3 bed terrace house in Se26 can be picked up for £600k? As an individual I got scared in investing in Sydenahm High street when I was looking to open a coffea shop and I invested elsewhere in the end. But people like caffe nero could take a hit if the shop would not work and make money hence why Caffe Neo.

[syd]

As I'm a dreamer I think it would be perfect for a pop up with right incentives

https://www.boxpark.co.uk/about/

Thanks for the link Syd. My only problem with it is it looks a little like there isn’t much space for people just selling good quality basic ingredients.

A market that sold cucumbers, potatoes, lettuce, olives, carrots etc. would allow everyone to gather the ingredients to make wholesome meals. Often Borough Market suffers from ignoring the everyday staples...

Actually, I’m spitballing here - it’s a long time since I used Borough Market. Is it still possible to do a weekly vegetable shop there for less than £20?

But in principle - yes - it turns the high street into a destination, it promotes real food and an interactive shopping experience.

Hi Rod, It's always better to check rather than assume. It's like the argument that Waitrose and John Lewis are expensive when the reality is Waitrose is as cheap as Tesco Locals and John Lewis is a lot cheaper than Argos

Samsung fridge freezer JL £399. Argos £449

https://www.johnlewis.com/samsung-rb29f ... p231906851

http://www.argos.co.uk/product/4872904







I

[syd]

Hi Stuart you asked what improvements I'd like to see. Well I'd pavements with a reduced kerb and the road bricked to give pedestrians priority this also slows traffic down. If it can be done at Oxford Circus it can be done here!

I'd remove all the railings and massive street signs that make the place look like somewhere you pass through and I'd have all the building brick work cleaned.

And finally I'd change the lamp posts to a modern contemporary design like the Bellenden regeneration area.

I'd also give Mayo road a do over and prune the park by the railings so it can be seen from the street at the moment it just looks like an overgrown jungle from the outside it's not very inviting.

It may cost a couple of mil but we've had nothing since I've moved here so I think it's fair

[syd]

I'd also give Mayo road a do over and prune the park by the railings so it can be seen from the street at the moment it just looks like an overgrown jungle from the outside it's not very inviting.

It just shows you the difficulty of navigating all these different opinion about how we see, and how we'd like to see, Sydenham.

For me the jungle effect makes me love Mayow Park more - it looks more inviting - like a hidden world. I find overly manicured flower beds can be sterile.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I'd rather the bushes on Mayo Road were removed and the railing too so the park felt like a part of rather than separate.

[Pally]

[quote][What is great about so many continental towns is the covered market. Not markets as we have known them in, say, Penge or Lewisham - but more like Borough Market with a wide variety of interesting foods imaginatively displayed in a clean, green well lit retail area. The dozen or so stalls having so much greater impact than any individual. A true and better successor to the Co-op. And one that is warm and dry 365 days a year for habit making - unlike the occasional pocket markets.

There would be huge problems to overcome. First the herding of cats to cover the substantial rent/rates. Secondly why would a successful market trader guaranteed income at, say, Borough Market, take a chance on Sydenham?

I can think of a solution or two that might work with a co-operative landlord (who is that?). People around here can probably think of better ones - or a completely different idea. Anyway that's my flag up the pole. Is anyone saluting? Stuart [quote]

It's an imaginative idea and a good one ....

 

[mosy]

I'd agree with a covered market idea, but not necessarily for fresh food as many high street shops have a fresh veg offering (because perishable goods allow longer trading hours), some really good of course, and they'd suffer. I don't want our long established good shops to suffer if it makes a market no different from a supermarket killing off local competition.

Markets can sell all sorts of things, whereas I get the impression that food and coffee somehow has the right to take over the high street since, bar cinema requests, it's all people on here seem to talk about or want. Amazingly maybe to some, I quite like the shops that sell something other than food or coffee.

[Larky]

Costa is coming to Penge !

[Ghlpc]

Diego Costa?

[Larky]

Costa coffee