Sydenham too tatty for Caffe Nero

[appletree]

Jenny, that's really nice. Makes me ashamed of myself.

[Nigel]

Stuart makes a good point re existing business - nearly all the established places are genuinely really good - Kirkdale Books obviously and Sydenham DIY but also Billings Fresh and Fruity , Stationery Box, Angie's Flowers , on the hoof, the dry cleaner at the top end , the shoe repair place , Cake Store ( need to improve service speed a bit ) Dolphin , Woodfalls, Hilltop Cafe - Dilz ( though preferred Semas), Sugahill , cherry and ice ( not my bag but popular) , the cafe in the park and of course " Pete's" newsagent and Blue Mountain .
My point is the big chains have added nothing - especially Tesco , and we just need more of the same to keep building on recent success .
I am not a total Nando-Naysayer though I will defiantly not set foot in there , but I think it's potential to boost the high street is over rated .
A very good morning
Nigel

[PackOfDusters]

So... I know that social media of all sorts, including online fora, encourage criticism and bickering and all sorts of frustration. But it's Sunday night, and I and a whole lot of other people are back to work tomorrow. So here is something positive in the midst of the disappointment.

My partner and I moved to Sydenham from East Dulwich just over a year ago. We originally came to London because of my work, and we moved to East Dulwich to find somewhere we could afford to rent, with trees and greenery, and some kind of cultural life. There's plenty of good to be said for ED, but I also found it to be very excluding - I never felt wealthy enough to fit in. Which in itself is a laughable thing - I'm extremely fortunate for everything I have.

In the year that we've lived here in Sydenham, we've come to know more people in the community than we did in the previous three that we lived in ED. I can get into Central London more quickly and easily than I ever could before. And yes, Sydenham sometimes looks a bit grubby; yes it has pound shops and takeaways and betting shops, but you know what? It also has everything I need. A wonderful independent bookshop; a delightful wine shop with staff so friendly they've become good friends of mine; a really lovely restaurant cum wine bar with delicious things to eat and drink; several great places for breakfast or lunch; a hardware store where I can find things I need to stock my home; a good butchers/fishmongers; a health food store that stocks fresh bread; a stationery shop; a post office (seriously rare in these straitened times); most banks that I could name; a pet shop; a decent pub; proximity to gorgeous parks, and one of London's very few 50m swimming pools. Catch the High Street on a sunny day and it looks stunning. There is life and verve in Sydenham. It has history. It has life. Of course it isn't as gentrified as Forest Hill or ED or Crystal Palace, but that is why we were able to move here in the first place. I don't want to compare it to anywhere else. It's where I have my home. I believe in it.

Happy Sunday, all.

This with bells on! Great post! I very rarely post on the forum but agree with this so much that I felt compelled to log on to express my enthusiasm. I think Sydenham is great as it is. Admittedly it could be a bit cleaner, and yes, there are a lot of empty units at the moment. But it's a useful, extremely friendly high street. It's all very well having lots of high-end gift shops,
but not if you can't afford to shop in them (which is what places like ED feel like to me)!

[Hissing Syd]

Really lovely post, Jenny, thank you.

[stuart]

Stuart - Adolf Hitler and Jeremy Corbyn? Sounds like the mad ramblings found in Town Pub. A section of this forum I'm glad is locked away. I don't need to spend my time worrying about the interpretation of that..

Mad rambings are not restricted to the Town Pub but I thought all registered members had access to it anyway. Has that changed?

My point is none of the good businesses mentioned come on to this forum. Why? Is it their fault then? or is it because they've read reviews describing their food as inedible dust or coffee like mud. Or describing someone who is investing in the area as going about it in a shitty manner. .

Let's take the first two I mentioned by doing a simple search. Kirkdale Bookshop has over 400 mentions mostly very positive. Do look through and find any that are not. Trat Raff. ONLY 252 mentions. Any mention of inedible food? I think not - but do feel free to find any.

Frankly a recommendation from a respected user is worth a hundred puff pieces by the business. On the whole good Sydenham businesses get that. On the other hand a business responding to criticism in a positive manner should earn brownie points. I've seen that - just as I've seen missed opportunities.

Also interesting to see Sugahill mentioned as a good Sydenham business. Who on here knows that Sugahill has put on evening events throughout the summer? Who on here came and had a look or commented in a positive manner?

Me.

How about Cherry and Ice open Mike? The live music every weekend at Golden Lion.

The GL did that many times. I've enjoyed it many times BECAUSE THEY DID THAT. Have you promoted Cherry & Ice? - I probably wouldn't have noticed it because open mike isn't one of my things.

Sorry but it seems you are running down Sydenham based on prejudice rather than fact. The irony is it is you complaining about how Sydenham is portrayed here when I see you as a culprit.

For me its probably the least worst place in London to live on my income. Yep, that's a negative too. But at least its a least worst negative. Plus Sydenham is in walking distance of Forest Hill, Penge and Crystal Palace for many of us which must make it the ideal central location for those who prefer the alternatives ...

Plus the 176 puts East Dulwich and, eh, the West End on your doorstep 24/7.

Stuart

[stuart]

You forum posters love a good row don't you!

You started it. I'm not enjoying it.

Stuart

[syd]

There do seem to be some false arguments here.

To clarify I expect to get the same level of investment as other areas. I'm not asking for gentrification I'm asking for my council tax to be invested where I live and not siphoned off to other wealthier parts of the borough.

That's not too much to ask or is it?

[stuart]

What investment are you asking for? Decisions on opening shops (whether independent or chain) is high risk. Not a good scenario for local authorities who have to justify all their spend (not just the bit that works).

The best they can do imho is instead to use their planning authority to guide would be investors quickly to a positive decision (helping the investor find solutions for difficulties, not just passing them back).

Stuart

[syd]

FY 17-19 Catford will have capital investment of £7.5m

2011 Deptford had £18m capital investment.

Sydenham £0.

And in the 16/17 accounts is this £0.5m. It's outrageous!


7(c) New Bermondsey Inquiry
On 22nd February 2017 Lewisham’s Full Council agreed to set up an Independent Inquiry to examine matters relating to a proposed Compulsory Purchase Order (CPO) of land at New Bermondsey/ Surrey Canal. The Independent Inquiry is planned to begin in April 2017 with a view to reporting before the end of the calendar year. The Council has agreed expenditure of up to £500,000 for the conduct of this Inquiry. Further information can be found at the attached site:

[stuart]

Again, what are you asking Lewisham to spend the money on in Sydenham?

The road between Kirkdale and Mayow Road is pretty full. Fuller than, say, Penge. The problem is shortening the time for investors to get a return on their investment.

Our major problem is the Co-op store. Too big as a convenience store, too small as a supermarket. Who is best positioned to sort that - Lewisham or the landlord?

Stuart

[Pally]

I find it disheartening and I know others do too. Rather than a forum that shares ideas, promotes events and shares news its degenerated into quite a miserable and argumentative place.

You are rather ignoring the huge amount of sharing ideas and news and promoting events this site does, decchips.

There’s the odd unreconstructed comment, but on the whole people cheerlead for SE26. But if criticism needs to be made I’m not sure why those who make it have to be called miserable.

Very well put Rod!

[syd]

Again, what are you asking Lewisham to spend the money on in Sydenham?

The road between Kirkdale and Mayow Road is pretty full. Fuller than, say, Penge. The problem is shortening the time for investors to get a return on their investment.

Our major problem is the Co-op store. Too big as a convenience store, too small as a supermarket. Who is best positioned to sort that - Lewisham or the landlord?

Stuart

If you can't see room for improvement I can't help you.

[stuart]

If you can't see room for improvement I can't help you.

I'm trying to help you.

What investment from Lewisham are you looking to achieve what improvement? Imagine I have an open cheque book. Pitch!

Stuart

[leenewham]

Again, what are you asking Lewisham to spend the money on in Sydenham?

Our major problem is the Co-op store. Too big as a convenience store, too small as a supermarket. Who is best positioned to sort that - Lewisham or the landlord?

Stuart

They could revisit the pocket squares which are poorly designed, invest in the market and run it properly, pop up shops, business advice, local town branding or lower rents to encourage new businesses, shop front grants which can and do make a difference, encouraging a local bid group, marketing the area, creating a town centre plan, more trees.

Our cllrs should be fighting for the money rather than staying quiet to allow all the funding to fo to Catford and Deptford.

I agree that the Co-op is a massive issue, but disagree that it's just the wrong size. With the right business and positioning it could work. There are many other similar size supermarkets that work.

[Larky]

Surely, this is the role of Sydenham Society ?

[mosy]

Which money pays for such things? I ask because I don't know if it is council tax or a separate pot from somewhere which I assume isn't the government. If it is council tax "extracted" from the operating budget, what has to be foregone instead? If it is council tax that's extracted anyway but spent mostly everywhere other than Sydenham, then presumably it can only be up to our councillors to fight for - and get - a fair share of it.

On the other hand, I'm amazed when we learn of the huge costs that the council seems to bear for things, e.g. new trees, repairing signs. To me, the processes seem overly cumbersome plus so much work is outsourced by all councils now they no longer have specific workforces on staff. I could be wrong as a mere observer - maybe the council is as efficient and streamlined it can be.

[leenewham]

Councils get pots of money to spend on specific things, like high streets etc. They have to spend it on the intended purpose. They bid for the money and win it.

It's not council tax. The High Street Fund/Outer London Fund was from the Mayor of Londons office, which came from a loan Boris took out when he was Mayor. Sometimes it's section 106 money from developers. Or from the New Homes Bonus (similar thing). It's not from council tax.

Lewisham outsources much of what they do. They have an external procurement agency that is tied up in red tape, which often means its very expensive and complicated to do some things that are very simple.

If you talk to council officers, they often say they wish they had their own council workers so they didn't have to deal with amendments to contracts etc with independent suppliers on long-term contracts which means making small changes, creating bespoke areas etc is very difficult to do. So you are right Mosy.

Often procurement makes things very expensive, but it means boxes are ticked for due process.

[JRobinson]

....
Buy a pair of trousers and keep them for a decade.
....

I bought a pair of jeans in 2007, and they are now patched multiple times, patches on patches, they're still in useful service, as gardening/DIY trousers. is this the kind of thing you mean?
has it saved me money? probably yes, but it has also taken up some of my time.
if I walked down the high street wearing them, it would certainly look like I was too scruffy for cafe Nero.

[conti16]

Thank you for your comment below, I totally agree with you and I do firmly believe that because of people like the one commenting the changes will never happen.
As said many times I don't particular like Nero but it's a brand that would have attracted other brands like a M&S equal to business.
I am Italian and there is not better coffea than Italy, apolgy for been arrogant here.
I do support the locals like on the Hoof and Blue Mountain but the area needs more competition. We have a lovely Trattoria Raffaele but why no see other chains to attract people in the area. The High street is always chaotic with limited choices of shop unless is an estate agent, nail shop, chicken shop and so on like that.
I wanted to invest my money in Sydenhma to open a coffea shop but the prices are rates are crazy so I am better off going central London.
I run an estate agent myself and I recognise the improvements occurred but very little compare to other areas very close to us.CP hasn't got as great properties as SE26 but yet the high street is unbelievable and apleasure to be in.
Properties prices have gone up everywhere, specially in those up and coming area. I was in Hackney for a while and believe me you would never imagine to pay £500,000 for 1 bed flat !
I lived in Forest Hill from 2006-09 and even there are better shop than SE26 despite having a broken high street.
Nearly 10 years lived here to have seen changing like pavements on the high street, a few trees, the opening of Billings, bless him, the Hoof, Sainsbury, a new development coming up, a vape shop, and audi. What else?

As usual, you're missing the point Rod, Caffè Nero would not open in Sydenham as it looks like a shit hole. Whether you like Nero or Nando's the point is that Sydenham is declared scruffy and down market and the area should be grateful for any investment from brands like these. Independent businesses aren't enough on their own, that's why there are still boarded up shops. Don't you see that there is a real problem when potential multinationals are saying this about where you live? If you ask me, it's an embarrassment.

I'm not missing the point Parker, I just disagree with you.

Bring in a series of multinationals and the high street would look and feel just like every other high street. That's something you want but I don't. I'd prefer empty shops.

If Nero think SE26 is downmarket that's a good thing - I think Nero is naff and fake.

[leenewham]

As said many times I don't particular like Nero but it's a brand that would have attracted other brands like a M&S equal to business.
I am Italian and there is not better coffea than Italy, apolgy for been arrogant here.
I do support the locals like on the Hoof and Blue Mountain but the area needs more competition. We have a lovely Trattoria Raffaele but why no see other chains to attract people in the area. The High street is always chaotic with limited choices of shop unless is an estate agent, nail shop, chicken shop and so on like that.
I wanted to invest my money in Sydenhma to open a coffea shop but the prices are rates are crazy so I am better off going central London.

If Nero think SE26 is downmarket that's a good thing - I think Nero is naff and fake.

[/quote]

The best coffee is the coffee you prefer. Italian coffee as in style, can be nice, but it's just a preference.

Cafe Nero will not attract M&S. They have their own criteria. It's not 'is there a Cafe Nero nearby'!

I agree, I'm not a fan of chain coffee shops other than Gails as they do incredible cakes and nice tea in a pot and I consider it a real treat. I go to Crystal Palace BECASUE of the independent shops. I go to Dulwich Village because of Gails. I got to Forest Hill because of Bunka and Aga's Deli. I go to Beckenham because of their Charity shops and markets and cinema, plus they have really good restaurants, but the ones I like aren't chains.

Multinational chains such as Costa and Nero would be a bad thing in Sydenham as they drive up rents. In bigger units there often isn't any choice, but you don't want a generic high street with the same chains everywhere.

Each of these areas offer something different for me and they are interesting places to walk around becasue of them.