Sydenham too tatty for Caffe Nero

[conti16]

I am some what disappointed that the high street of Sydenham has not managed to get better ( been here since 2009).
A few good changes but nothing drastic and everything seems so slow while neighbours are booming. It feels that people here don't want the change but happy to carry on in the mediocre way.
I have managed to get around the high street arepresentative of Caffe Nero but sadly I was told it's still too Tatty to have such.
Would like to see changes for a better high street but feels I have to move to enjoy a better place

[syenhamboy]

Do we want a fake Italian American style coffee shop here? No thanks. Give me an independent proper espresso shop any day of the week.

[mosy]

At the risk of being rude to Cafe Nero, have you tried their dishwater coffee lately? If Sydenham is not deemed worthy of tasteless coffee, it seems that motorway service station customers up and down the country are deemed to be. Lucky them and Sydenham dodged a bullet

Sorry for sarcasm and it's just a personal opinion of someone who thinks coffee should taste of coffee. Also, they are not a franchise so need to take responsibility for what they serve since blame cannot be passed to a franchisee.

[parker]

As a long term Sydenham dweller I would like to confirm that yes, I love living in slum-like conditions in this backward favela and yes I'm keen to keep it that way.

I often muse on what a shit place Sydenham is as I wait to pay at the butchers before queuing up for veg at fresh and fruity or drinking coffee at 161 Kirkdale whilst reading a book purchased at our independent bookshop and then returning to my house that has doubled in value in 7 years.

Oh to live somewhere truly cosmopolitan- perhaps somewhere with a Nando's.

As usual, you're missing the point Rod, Caffè Nero would not open in Sydenham as it looks like a shit hole. Whether you like Nero or Nando's the point is that Sydenham is declared scruffy and down market and the area should be grateful for any investment from brands like these. Independent businesses aren't enough on their own, that's why there are still boarded up shops. Don't you see that there is a real problem when potential multinationals are saying this about where you live? If you ask me, it's an embarrassment.

[Pally]

Well taking independent, as I said in the "Nans" thread ..I got in touch with them, they asked about possible sites on the hight street, I asked for suggestions on this forum and no one replied!!!! I got back to Nans and made a couple ofm suggestions ...but found the lack of engagement on here quite interesting, whilst seeing all this advocating of independent cafes etc!!

[prince]

I am some what disappointed that the high street of Sydenham has not managed to get better ( been here since 2009).
A few good changes but nothing drastic and everything seems so slow while neighbours are booming. It feels that people here don't want the change but happy to carry on in the mediocre way.
I have managed to get around the high street arepresentative of Caffe Nero but sadly I was told it's still too Tatty to have such.
Would like to see changes for a better high street but feels I have to move to enjoy a better place

I'm disappointed and somewhat suprised to hear this. Have you ever been to some of the places like ramsgate in Kent where cafe Nero has invested and tell me that is better than Sydenham! Was the person a representative from their property department?

Anyhow I cherish and love our individual coffee places like Sugarhill, blue mountain, kente, on the hoof, brown and Green - I would choose these any day of the week!

[appletree]

I think that's the point, Rod Taylor -- you prefer empty shops to investment. Goodness knows why.

I like Sydenham chiefly because of its proximity to Crystal Palace and East Dulwich, which are prosperous and have nice shops and restaurants. Sydenham does not have these. It has empty shops and urban blight, and people like Rod Taylor want to keep it that way.

[vbsydenham]

I'm with you on this Rod. Sydenham has lots of nice, independent coffee shops and plenty of character. Café Nero does bad coffee and worse pastries. You should be glad they don't want to open in Sydenham.

Now if we could just do something about that road...

[Parker1970]

Cafe Nero's opinion matters not to me in the slightest whilst they don't pay their corporation taxes

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rofit.html

"Caffe Nero pays no corporation tax AGAIN: Furious MPs accuse firm of playing the system after it made £25m profit last year"

I get the overall intention of the thread though and I can agree, Sydenham high street looks tatty. We have some great independent shops but also lots of closed shops or indeed open shops with dated frontage that badly needs redecorating.

[leenewham]

If you want the high street to regenerate, you do not want larger brands like Café Nero going into the empty units.

The reason is that they tend to push up rents. Areas regenerate due to low rent that attracts creative, interesting, unique businesses, often run by local people who fall in love with an area that has seen better days. More more original features, the more of a timewarp, the better.

Sydenham has more empty businesses that at any time I've known since I've been here. If there ever was a time for Sydenham Road to change, it's now. But there seems to be no vision from the powers that be for how Sydenham should evolve/change.

Sadly, some larger units are only suitable for larger brands unless they are broken up into smaller units (So the odd Nandos here and there is fine in the right units). But more Sugahills On the Hoofs (People come from Penge to go there), Trattoria, Calabash etc. and the likes of places like Birdie Num Num/London Particular/Little Nans Bar/LP in Deptford and New Cross would make a big difference.

The likes of Nero/Costa ride on the wave of regeneration. They go into places that are already on the up, where footfall improves and demographics fit with theirs. They do their research. They don't start regeneration, it's not what they are about. And Rod is right, they make our high streets look the same (although there are already lots of multi-nationals and big brands in Sydenham, from banks, estate agents, betting shops, supermarkets, funeral parlours, chemists etc). It's boring, dull. Why would an exciting barista/cafe/bistro/designer maker etc start in Sydenham when a big brands has driven up rents?

Penge is the place to watch, look at how they are doing it.

[Pally]

Any proactive suggestions then, from anyone, for venues for Nans to look at ...from anyone??

[syd-gal]

>Penge is the place to watch, look at how they are doing it.
I keep hearing that Penge is improving, but I haven't seen much sign of it, apart from the renovation to the old police station area.

[Likelife]

I can understand the scepticism for big chains. Truth be told I'm not a massive fan of Nero; I had a hot choc from one of their Sutton branches a few weeks back and it was like a kg of sugar was in it. That said, the other side of me says I'd welcome the investment. Preferring empty shops instead of Nero baffles me to be honest and I know a lot of people up and down the country would kill for the chance to get chains in their dying town centres. I'd love for Sydenham high street to become the new Battersea Northcote Road, but unlike the established middle class suburbs, a lot of people don't have the finances or time to be doing this in Sydenham yet. If I had the money and wasn't a student I would consider opening a shop myself.

The high street does look tattier this year and in development, you often hear something along the lines "it has to get worse before it gets better". With property developers and estate agents promoting the area, it will improve. It will be interesting to see who take and how long it will take for the new building commercial unit to be filled. The size and cost of it mean it will probably have to be a chain.

Having a thought, and I know maybe controversial, but is it time for Sydenham had its own BID covering Mid Kirkdale down to Bell Green? According to the GLA, there isn't one in LB Lewisham yet there are seven in LB Lambeth. I'd gladly be involved as much as I can. Lots of info here https://www.london.gov.uk/what-we-do/bu ... -districts

[Ghlpc]

Lee, I appreciate your obvious knowledge and plans for the local areas, so would like to ask how Penge is the place to watch?

This is a genuine question....because you've mentioned this a number of times on different discussions in relation to Sydenham high street.

however I regularly use and visit both penge and sydenham high streets and honestly can't see how one is better than the other.. ..!

I would imagine there is a lot going on behind the scenes for future improvements in penge, but you could equally say the same of our high street no?

[stuart]

Can I jump in with an answer?

I was in Penge Saturday. At the Alms House end the cafe seems to have taken over the pavement with lots of people enjoying their lattes in the sun. The Alex looked cooler than grey and the cross is dominated by our very own PropertyWorld.

The point is Penge was a dump. Really downmarket from Sydenham. Its the change that strikes one. Yes there are plenty of closed shops and the Selecta-a-Door opposite PropertyWorld is desperate for a makeover but it is now a much more useful shopping centre than Sydenham:

* Sainsbury
* Lidl
* Wilko
* Poundland
* Iceland

They may not be your choice but they are all substantial, useful to their markets and all close together. Add it has a library, cafes and even a McDonalds if you like that sort of thing plus SE20 cycles, the music shop. It has something for nearly everbody.

While Sydenham is muddling along hopefully. Penge is delivering. Momentum is everything and Penge has it. If I was to relocate Kirkdale Bookship (God forbid) I think I know which way it would go. Fast action on Nando's, KFH, Greyhound, Co-op and the new build and the situation could be reversed. But it ain't happening.

Stuart

[Ghlpc]

Cheers Stuart. I'll accept your point on momentum maybe...

But surely we can't go tit for tat about the shops and amenities? You mention wilko, mcds and Iceland that Sydenham doesn't have....I can come back with blue mountain, billings, on the hoof and the cake store....

Don't get me wrong, I shop in Penge sometimes and I would like to see it's continued improvement of course ... but as high streets go, both aesthetically and in it's make up of the demographics, it's not overtaken or bettered Sydenham, no way.

I remember forest hill being a dump. When I was younger I seem to remember it and sydenham often mentioned in the same sentence when talking about or referring to that part of SE london as they were so similar. Now look.

I dont think (hope not!) I'll be saying the same about Penge is 15 years time.

Maybe I'm just a bit defensive about my local high street, or maybe I'm in denial....

[leenewham]

Lee, I appreciate your obvious knowledge and plans for the local areas, so would like to ask how Penge is the place to watch?

The high street improvements look interesting and do more than just adding 'nicer paving' which is what Sydenhams delivered.
There is a shop front improvement scheme in the offing.
Antic have invested in two properties there.
They have the Penge Tourist Board and other high street groups.
They have a lot of empty shops along Maple road which are ripe for regeneration.
They have interesting 'quirky' businesses in the Alexandra.
It's demographic is changing and the high street with it.
It's in between Crystal Palace and Beckenham with some decent schools around there.
They have a variety of pubs and a few good 'upmarket' pubs, like the Bridge House Tavern.
The Pop-up is doing well and is highlighting local designer-makers.
A lot of their street art is pretty fantastic with lots of local input.
Plus what Stuart said.

[stuart]

Aha - I think we may be looking at 'Hight Streets' differently. One is a functional place where you go for everyday supplies - an alternative to the hypermarket. There Penge scores heavily over both Sydenham and Forest Hill.

Then there are the small specialist shops, cafes and bars. Dartmouth Road is an ever changing mix of everything that can be squeezed into 1000 sq ft or so. There Forest Hill has it. But its pretty hopeless for grocery shopping unless you don't want anything but Sainsburys. There's nowhere that sells the stuff you used to get from Woolworths. Its only got one bank.

Sydenham is short on both. Frankly if it ain't in Lidl's its too much bother and expense to check out anywhere else. That's why I say the closure of the Co-op was a disaster. You need choice. No one grocery store can really provide all your needs or you would go down to the sterile SavaCentre. Yes it does have a few good specialist shops with the bookshop taking the crown. But they are useless if you don't bother to go there to get the basics. That's unless it has a specialist reputation. Which it doesn't and is hard to get.

Going back to Penge - which I now do now every week - it may not have many quality specialist shops yet. But it does have a number of small empty units in just the right place. It has footfall. If the two collide then the place could really take off. The ingredients are there.

And so is the enthusiasm. The PTB was an inspired idea. Somehow Penge has taken its image as a forgotten carbuncle on the backside of complacent Bromley, turned it round and done its own thing - beholden to no one. Bromley probably doesn't care what happens. Hence Penge feels free from the dead hand of central 'policy'.

That's why I have a hunch that Penge may be the next Balham. Though I hope not to be entirely engulfed by 'young professionals'.

Stuart

EDIT: Lee we appear to have posted much the same message simultaneously. Apologies for the repitition.

[alywin]

It has something for nearly everbody.

Unless you happen to want a bank

[Willy]

The signs are there that the hipsters are moving in...it has a shop called Debris ("scattered pieces of rubbish or remains") which always makes me laugh when I see it