mosy wrote:prince, do you, or anyone, know how a "neighbour consultation" outcome would make a difference if the plans submitted (as amended) are within the parameters of the planning rules by which the council has to abide? I.e. What's the point?
Yours,
"Confused of Tunbridge Wells".
Officers will consider what people say through the consultation and will have to weigh this up with all other the other matters. The important thing is that they need to be valid planning considerations. However I am not sure really what they are consulting on now. Probably the latest transport doc that has been submitted.
Many thanks for your email. The planning application is for
The change of use of the existing two units from A1/A2 use to A3 use (restaurants and cafés) at 301-303 Kirkdale SE26, together with the creation of an additional entrance from Spring Hill.
Within the application was the request for a 10 metre loading bay on Spring Hill for deliveries.
I welcome the addition of another A3 restaurant as this will enhance the offer in our high street.
The issue for planners is the Nando's home delivery hub and the % of takeaways that would require an application for a change of use to A5. The Council has policies around the granting of further A5s as we have one of the highest levels of A5 takeaways in the country and one of the highest levels of obesity. Restaurants do have an ancillary "de minimum" use - usually for customers who call in for a takeaway pizza as in Trattoria Raffaele but the substantive business is as a sit down restaurant.
Highways are also asking about the transport arrangements for the mopeds and Deliveroo bikes. There are no loading bays on Spring Hill as Sainsbury's agreed to use the loading bay outside the Pavilion on Kirkdale. The traders on the even side of Kirkdale agreed not to have a loading bay as they preferred short term parking for customers. For changes to parking and loading bays there is usually the need for consultation with the traders and residents in this case regarding the loss of parking on Spring Hill.
I understand that officers are waiting on further information from Nando's. I have had an onsite meeting with the developers and the Sydenham Society as this is part of a plan to redevelop the whole of the corner that was originally Cobbs Department store. I have had a conversation with the planning officer and expressed my support for the change of use to A3 and suggested a further meeting to understand the master plan for the site.
By the way I do not agree with your comment that the high street is a real mess and I can give you an update on the empty shops should you wish. I will continue to work with planners and developers to promote a vibrant high street that meets the needs of all our residents.
I hope that helps in explaining why this is not a straightforward change of use.
Kind regards
Chris
Cllr Chris Best
Shocking 1970's jobsworth reply. What about the positive benefits of Nando's? The jobs and the fact that a chain wants to invest in Sydenham? Is the owner of one of those low rent chicken shops influencing the descision?
I can't imagine why a high steeet which lost its major supermarket is being sniffy about Nando's.
This needs some investigation like that millwall housing scandal.
I thought it was a polite and appropriate email and outlined legitimate concerns about the proponderence of fried chicken and takeaways in Lewisham.
Many of these concerns have been discussed by local residents here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7712&hilit=KFC
You don't have to walk around Lewisham for very long to notice the shocking levels of obesity, and I think it is only right that this is reflected in planning considerations.
I understand this is frustrating if you are a grilled chicken lover; but to be honest Nando's isn't a great deal healthier than KFC and they often use thre same suppliers: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegr ... n-kfc/amp/
rod taylor
Posts: 2771
Joined: 24 Jul 2011 23:32
Location: Forest Hill
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Nando's is a globally recognised brand and will encourage more investment if successful, this is what Sydenham needs. The closure of Budgens should have sent a signal that Sydenham needs all the help it can get. I can't understand why some would prefer an empty shop.
And the obesity problem isn't just the fault of chicken shops. I'd like to cycle to work but where are the cycle lanes? Where is the cycle hire? There is a complete lack of ambition for Sydenham and it shows. Sports Direct at Bell Green didn't even bother to clad the breeze blocks!! That says it all really
I commented on this Forum some months ago that there was meddling with this application.
That post followed a discussion I had with an active member of a local body.
They informed me, with much glee, that Nandos were likely to pull out because "they wouldn't get what they wanted."
When questioned they informed me that they wanted to provide deliveries and if other local Nandos were not allowed to do the same, Sydenham would become a delivery hub for a wide area.
I always knew that this was pure speculation and this has been borne out with further information from the applicant.
Nandos is a restaurant and deliveries are ancillary. Only 15% of trade from the restaurant will be from deliveries.
They also informed me that it was okay if Nandos pulled out for it would get a change of use and then "we could get something nice like a Pizza Express". The fact is that Pizza Express use deliveroo for a delivery service.
The same person associated Nandos with obesity. They obviously don't know that grilled chicken is better for you than a pizza.
So I wonder if Pizza Express had applied for a change of use, would they still be waiting for a decision six months later? I wonder.
I commented on this Forum some months ago that there was meddling with this application.
That post followed a discussion I had with an active member of a local body.
They informed me, with much glee, that Nandos were likely to pull out because "they wouldn't get what they wanted."
When questioned they informed me that they wanted to provide deliveries and if other local Nandos were not allowed to do the same, Sydenham would become a delivery hub for a wide area.
I always knew that this was pure speculation and this has been borne out with further information from the applicant.
Nandos is a restaurant and deliveries are ancillary. Only 15% of trade from the restaurant will be from deliveries.
They also informed me that it was okay if Nandos pulled out for it would get a change of use and then "we could get something nice like a Pizza Express". The fact is that Pizza Express use deliveroo for a delivery service.
The same person associated Nandos with obesity. They obviously don't know that grilled chicken is better for you than a pizza.
So I wonder if Pizza Express had applied for a change of use, would they still be waiting for a decision six months later? I wonder.
I agree there is something fishy going on. Why on earth would anyone object to a mid level global brand on their high street? Nando's has a good reputation and could only benefit Sydenham. The obesity argument is bull, I'm more concerned about the 24/hr availiability of booze and the bookies everywhere.
appletree wrote:So sick of lack of improvement because of these delays. It's as if the council and local activists want Sydenham to ge a dump.
I've noticed all the surrounding areas have improved especially Honor Oak which has some great new street planters. When the council killed the cherry blossom tree and left a windswept unloved junction at the corner of Kent house road it was a message that the council has no regard for the residents of Sydenham as they are mostly blue collar and won't complain.
Any ideas what else locals can do to ascertain to the relevant people the views of the majority?
Anyone with any consultancy experience that would have template letters and know who to send them to?
It is clear most people here want Nando's to happen (even if it is not entirely their thing) and clearly those that don't are viewing this forum anonymously. If the people that want this don't speak up now then the battle may be lost very soon.
parker wrote:Any ideas what else locals can do to ascertain to the relevant people the views of the majority?
Anyone with any consultancy experience that would have template letters and know who to send them to?
It is clear most people here want Nando's to happen (even if it is not entirely their thing) and clearly those that don't are viewing this forum anonymously. If the people that want this don't speak up now then the battle may be lost very soon.
I second that. ive not read one good argument against Nando's
I have to agree that I don't really understand the apparent "issues" with Nandos ...it seems such a good opportunity! And to be honest I'm sure some might object to Pizza Express!! Agreeing applications really shouldn't come down to personal preferences even in any "local groups" !!!!
I would welcome advice on who to contact to support the application, along with others
I have absolutely no problem with people making representations opposing an application. However these representations must be based on valid planning considerations and not on speculation.
I am concerned that as local planning authority credence seems to be given to such representations from some bodies.
The best way to suppport an application is to write in via the Councils planning portal.
Normally it would be good to write to local councillors to seek their support. I am disappointed that having written to three councillors only one has written back and I'm not really convinced of their support.
We could petition. I don't particularly like petitions but we could start one - I am sure that standing on the high street on a Saturday morning we could collectively get a thousand signatures no problem!
However to be honest unless Nandos think that they will get a decision soon, I am sure that they will go to appeal - sydenham is too good an investment opportunity for them not to. I am certain that a Government inspector would allow the appeal and permission be granted.
syd wrote:I second that. ive not read one good argument against Nando's
Well a Nando's doesn't do much in terms of developing a local, homegrown restaurant scene based on British cuisine with British ingredients. It's a foreign owned chain of undoubtedly substandard fare, but I appreciate it is relatively cheap.
On a macro level it cements the national reputation as a culinary backwater - but again, I appreciate given the national appetite (pardon the pun) for well known brands (see high streets everywhere) - a Nando's is probably the best we can hope for.
Ok a bit of hyperbole but a nice sentiment; for an area where the largest store on the high street is open. The broken window theory is true and the longer shops stay empty the less chance there is of investment. The closure of Budgens is bad for Sydenham and sends a negative message. Stopping Nando's while waiting for a Gordon Ramsay gastro pub is ridiculous imo.
syd wrote:Stopping Nando's while waiting for a Gordon Ramsay gastro pub is ridiculous imo.
Oh absolutely, I agree, Syd. But when you travel thorough France and Italy and see the variety and quality of food on offer, both in large cities and in the country, it is a bit sad that people are actively excited about Nando's opening in Sydenham. Especially when you factor in the palpable absence of obesity in those countries and the alarming evidence of it in a cursory stroll down Sydenham Road.
Yes I agree it would be lovely to have a variety of small independently owned restaurants selling organic locally owned produce. However we live in a country where national chains are king on the high street and that's the reality.
I would love to have the diversity of restaurants that there are in Crystal Palace and East Dulwich but the demographics are different in Sydenham.
We could wait around for years for that type of investment and in the meantime things don't improve.
Hopefully securing a national eatery might be a catalyst to securing further restaurants and maybe even that cinema that we want. What opponents of this type of restaurant don't seem to understand is that cinemas will only invest in an area where there are places to eat. So in opposing this investment they are basically shutting the door to a cinema operator, if there is one who might be interested.
People need to see the bigger picture because currently I think those with influence really sadly don't.
syd wrote:Stopping Nando's while waiting for a Gordon Ramsay gastro pub is ridiculous imo.
Oh absolutely, I agree, Syd. But when you travel thorough France and Italy and see the variety and quality of food on offer, both in large cities and in the country, it is a bit sad that people are actively excited about Nando's opening in Sydenham. Especially when you factor in the palpable absence of obesity in those countries and the alarming evidence of it in a cursory stroll down Sydenham Road.
Yes I agree it would be lovely to have a variety of small independently owned restaurants selling organic locally owned produce. However we live in a country where national chains are king on the high street and that's the reality.
I would love to have the diversity of restaurants that there are in Crystal Palace and East Dulwich but the demographics are different in Sydenham.
Hopefully securing a national eatery might be a catalyst to securing further restaurants and maybe even that cinema that we want. What opponents of this type of restaurant don't seem to understand is that cinemas will only invest in an area where there are places to eat. So in opposing this investment they are basically shutting the door to a cinema operator, if there is one who might be interested.
I agree.... I think Nandos would be a step forward in the right direction longer term...it would hopefully make others look at the potential for investment in Sydenham! I too would prefer the variety, independent shops and so on ...and I don't like Nandos particularly ...but it is a modern phenomena that just might break a pattern in Sydenham ..?
I agree.... I think Nandos would be a step forward in the right direction longer term...it would hopefully make others look at the potential for investment in Sydenham! I too would prefer the variety, independent shops and so on ...and I don't like Nandos particularly ...but it is a modern phenomena that just might break a pattern in Sydenham ..?
Whilst I wouldn't use it I broadly support the Nando's opening .
I can't see anything unhelpful in Chris Best's update - let's face it , if it did turn into a hub of Dodgy-Roo and bikes all over the pavement it would concern some local residents , understandably and I see no reason why Chris would not want to check those points .
Nando's either have a clear proposal on the whole operation or they don't .
I agree we need more business in sydenham but just because we are desperate ( and we are if we're excited about Nando's ) doesn't mean we should make bad or uniformed decisions .
Nigel wrote:I agree we need more business in sydenham but just because we are desperate ( and we are if we're excited about Nando's ) doesn't mean we should make bad or uniformed decisions .
A very good evening
Nigel
Yes, exactly - it would be a bad or uninformed decision not to want Nando's in our diabolical town. Maybe you should go and try it in Catford, it actually tastes very good and is not bad for your health like the fast food chicken shops so many uninformed people on here are quick to compare it to.
Parker
If there was in your post , a rational argument for decision-making without without full facts then ,my apologies , I missed it .
I have tried it and it's horrible but that's not my point . I dislike tattoos but very happy to have the Inkwa shop in Sydenham .
Can we take the quality food arguments elsewhere please? I will argue they ain't relevant here.
First a shout for SydSoc. I am not a member but I have seen a little of the good work they do in trying to get businesses to Sydenham. Of course, its mainly aimed at businesses in their demographic. Just as most of the wish lists posted here and similar threads mainly represents those attractive to the posters.
Personally i would enjoy a Pizza Express - but not a Nandos. Beyond making retailers of my choice aware of vacant units should I or anyone else, apart from the landlord, have any influence on whether that unit be one or the other?
I think not. It is the retailer who is betting a very substantial sum on meeting the needs of a part of our community. Essentially if they can turn a profit then they are meeting a need. if not, they go away. Simples.
Its the objections to the "wrong kind of shop" that gets my goat. I would never campaign AGAINST Nando's or even a KFC. Sorting out technicalities is one issue but not using technicalities to frustrate a business entering a market. That is the issue here. SydSoc and their associates have some history there. However, we do need them to keep eyes peeled for potential problems as they forensically take planning applications apart.
But not arbiters of who is allowed to retail in Sydenham. The reputation of those protecting our interests has been questioned. A simple denial by them, as any good PR person may advise, isn't going to cut much ice. Its a level of trust that takes time, openness and a bit of humility to put that behind them.
I hope so. We should all be working together not bitching.