Just to clarify: the Windmill as existing is 702sqm. The "as existing" measurements on the case officer's report are a mistake. Wetherspoons said 702sqm is too small for them.
And in answer to a couple of questions ... The property developer isn't intending any events like we had before. He specifies there will no music. Indeed with bedrooms directly above the bar, residents would probably object to that. And with a ceiling height in the bar of only 2.4m the acoustics will probaby be terrible.
There may well be conflict as the entrance is coming forward (it's set back at the moment) so will increase crowding at the bus stop. Some of the flats have their entrance there too. There's no terrace at the back for smokers. And no fire exit from the bar or flats.
Edited for predictive text errors!
Windmill Victory
Re: Windmill Victory
Thanks the existing ground floor pub is 402sqm, with a further 289sqm for residential accommodation and office above according to previous property details.marymck wrote:Just to clarify: the Windmill as existing is 702sqm. The "as existing" measurements on the case officer's report are a mistake. Wetherspoons said 702sqm is too small for them.
And in answer to a couple of questions ... The property developer isn't intending any events like we had before. He specifies there will no music. Indeed with bedrooms directly above the bar, residents would probably object to that. And with a ceiling height in the bar of only 2.4m the acoustics will probaby be terrible.
There may well be conflict as the entrance is coming forward (it's set back at the moment) so will increase crowding at the bus stop. Some of the flats have their entrance there too. There's no terrace at the back for smokers. And no fire exit from the bar or flats.
Edited for predictive text errors!
https://worldofspoons.files.wordpress.c ... denham.pdf
So the officers report is correct.
Re: Windmill Victory
Hi Prince
I see the confusion. The case officer is referring to the whole of the existing Windmill as being 402sqm. In fact that's just the ground floor. On the first floor, which is approx 300sqm if memory serves, is the beer cellar, loos, a big catering kitchen (most of which hasn't been used for years due to the owner refusing to carry out repairs, but used to do lovely roasts). There are no flats in the current building.
If the owner had been willing to negotiate we would have hoped to reconfigure, so as to make more use of the first floor, with mezzanine seating visible from the street. We also had hoped to make the horrid looking back fully accessible and attractive. A proper multi functional, adaptable community hub. Tubby kindly drew us some inspirational drawings, but there was no way we could have come up with the 1.5M the then owner wanted.
Bernard Construction plan the whole bar (it is just a bar) to be on the ground floor, with a total space including kitchen and services of 300-something-sqm (sorry I'm typing this on my phone from memory, so I don't have the exact figure with me). Above the bar, kitchen and cellar will be two partially separated blocks (one front/one rear) of flats. Four or five flats will have their entrance at the back of the building, onto the Council depot access road. The other flats will have their entrance in the middle of the bar's frontage (where the bus stop is). There is no internal access between the flats at the back and the ones at the front. That's why we were worried about the lack of a fire escape route.
Naturally, I hope that Bernard Construction won't follow the example of the Talma's new owners, where they were given permission for three floors of residential over a ground floor with basement pub, only to now come back with an application for change of use to all residential ... No pub ... The current application includes windowless basement bedrooms. Only one central staircase with no fire escape in those plans either btw.
I hope this link helps (and works!) and that this has helped clarify things a bit.
All the best
Mary
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&sourc ... DMJWb8Ct4w
I see the confusion. The case officer is referring to the whole of the existing Windmill as being 402sqm. In fact that's just the ground floor. On the first floor, which is approx 300sqm if memory serves, is the beer cellar, loos, a big catering kitchen (most of which hasn't been used for years due to the owner refusing to carry out repairs, but used to do lovely roasts). There are no flats in the current building.
If the owner had been willing to negotiate we would have hoped to reconfigure, so as to make more use of the first floor, with mezzanine seating visible from the street. We also had hoped to make the horrid looking back fully accessible and attractive. A proper multi functional, adaptable community hub. Tubby kindly drew us some inspirational drawings, but there was no way we could have come up with the 1.5M the then owner wanted.
Bernard Construction plan the whole bar (it is just a bar) to be on the ground floor, with a total space including kitchen and services of 300-something-sqm (sorry I'm typing this on my phone from memory, so I don't have the exact figure with me). Above the bar, kitchen and cellar will be two partially separated blocks (one front/one rear) of flats. Four or five flats will have their entrance at the back of the building, onto the Council depot access road. The other flats will have their entrance in the middle of the bar's frontage (where the bus stop is). There is no internal access between the flats at the back and the ones at the front. That's why we were worried about the lack of a fire escape route.
Naturally, I hope that Bernard Construction won't follow the example of the Talma's new owners, where they were given permission for three floors of residential over a ground floor with basement pub, only to now come back with an application for change of use to all residential ... No pub ... The current application includes windowless basement bedrooms. Only one central staircase with no fire escape in those plans either btw.
I hope this link helps (and works!) and that this has helped clarify things a bit.
All the best
Mary
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&sourc ... DMJWb8Ct4w
Last edited by marymck on 24 Jul 2017 22:42, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Windmill Victory
Thanks for the link prince 
marymck: On the revised ground floor plan, there is a fire escape on either side towards the rear of the the pub area which appear to service both the pub and flats above. It's impossible to see (for me) whether they'd allow access to the back, and re-entrance, for smokers, but I'm sure they'd find somewhere.
I don't see why a flush front entrance would be a problem, unless you mean if smokers congregate maybe or are you thinking a hoard of rowdy revellers at chucking out time?
marymck: On the revised ground floor plan, there is a fire escape on either side towards the rear of the the pub area which appear to service both the pub and flats above. It's impossible to see (for me) whether they'd allow access to the back, and re-entrance, for smokers, but I'm sure they'd find somewhere.
I don't see why a flush front entrance would be a problem, unless you mean if smokers congregate maybe or are you thinking a hoard of rowdy revellers at chucking out time?
Re: Windmill Victory
Hi Mosy
The owners have said that there will no access for the pub's customers to the rear of the building and that there's no connect or shared stairs between residential and commercial premises.
I'm not sure whether the stairs at the back (a recent addition to the plans after SydSoc sent its comments in) are suitable as a fire exit for pub customers and this point wasn't answered when we raised it at the Planning Committee. I gathered it was to service the cellar (which is directly beneath a bedroom btw). The three councillors who approved the application didn't seem worried about fire routes.
Nor were the Councillors worried about conflict on what is already a very crowded and narrow section of pavement. Yes, it is there that the smokers will need to stand, which won't be pleasant for people waiting for the buses or for the residents on their balconies directly above. It always gets especially crowded at school run times, even with the current set back entrance and no smokers (there is a walled terrace garden at the back of the existing Windmill, but the intention is smokers on the pavement at the new bar).
The applicant said they won't allow live music at the pub and will mitigate against noise by limiting opening hours. Which is a shame for a pub on the high street, which has been trying to promote a night time economy. Much of the noise at any kind of venue happens when people arrive or leave. So we just have to hope the pub doesn't face so many restrictions that it becomes unviable.
The owners have said that there will no access for the pub's customers to the rear of the building and that there's no connect or shared stairs between residential and commercial premises.
I'm not sure whether the stairs at the back (a recent addition to the plans after SydSoc sent its comments in) are suitable as a fire exit for pub customers and this point wasn't answered when we raised it at the Planning Committee. I gathered it was to service the cellar (which is directly beneath a bedroom btw). The three councillors who approved the application didn't seem worried about fire routes.
Nor were the Councillors worried about conflict on what is already a very crowded and narrow section of pavement. Yes, it is there that the smokers will need to stand, which won't be pleasant for people waiting for the buses or for the residents on their balconies directly above. It always gets especially crowded at school run times, even with the current set back entrance and no smokers (there is a walled terrace garden at the back of the existing Windmill, but the intention is smokers on the pavement at the new bar).
The applicant said they won't allow live music at the pub and will mitigate against noise by limiting opening hours. Which is a shame for a pub on the high street, which has been trying to promote a night time economy. Much of the noise at any kind of venue happens when people arrive or leave. So we just have to hope the pub doesn't face so many restrictions that it becomes unviable.
Re: Windmill Victory
Hi Mary.
Many thanks for taking the time to add your thoughts to the discussion which is really useful.
I fully appreciate that we need to keep our community assets and I support many proposals to do so, including the Greyhound.
However to be viable the premises needs to be fit for purpose to suit the needs of modern operators.
Recent history has shown that the existing building did not appear to be fit for purpose. weatherspoons vacated the premises and the pub operator Antic sought to demolish and redevelop it. It was also marketed for sometime and has remained vacant.
I think the important thing here is that a developer is bringing forward a development that seeks to create a new purpose built mixed used scheme, demonstrating confidence in the local area. Part of this is a modern new unit on the ground floor for a pub, which hopefully will be attractive to operators. It's pub use is also afforded protection through its registering as Asset of Community Value, which i believe the Talma wasn't, if I am correct?
I positively welcome this new investment to and I very much hope that the pub unit will be let and prove to be very successful and to be well loved by our local community.
Many thanks for taking the time to add your thoughts to the discussion which is really useful.
I fully appreciate that we need to keep our community assets and I support many proposals to do so, including the Greyhound.
However to be viable the premises needs to be fit for purpose to suit the needs of modern operators.
Recent history has shown that the existing building did not appear to be fit for purpose. weatherspoons vacated the premises and the pub operator Antic sought to demolish and redevelop it. It was also marketed for sometime and has remained vacant.
I think the important thing here is that a developer is bringing forward a development that seeks to create a new purpose built mixed used scheme, demonstrating confidence in the local area. Part of this is a modern new unit on the ground floor for a pub, which hopefully will be attractive to operators. It's pub use is also afforded protection through its registering as Asset of Community Value, which i believe the Talma wasn't, if I am correct?
I positively welcome this new investment to and I very much hope that the pub unit will be let and prove to be very successful and to be well loved by our local community.
Re: Windmill Victory
The Asset of Community Value status lapsed in 2016 so it does not have to be a pub. This information is in the Council report linked to above.
Re: Windmill Victory
Hi Prince
Please excuse typos, as I'm on a rather shaky bus!
Unfortunately Lewisham removed the Windmill's ACV status following the Windmill's sale to Bernard Construction in April 2016. Legislation permits Councils to do that when there is a "relevant disposal" under the terms of the Act. (Edit: just to address appletree's comment, which crossed in the ether with my post - the ACV status didn't lapse, Lewisham took the decision to remove it following the sale. Many other Councils haven't chosen to exercise that right).
Speaking purely personally, I'm rather disappointed with the ACV legislation. It's useful in buying a stay of execution when an owner decides to sell, as they can't exchange contracts with anyone other than a community group for a six month period (always providing a community group has promptly expressed an interest in purchase ). But the owner isn't required to accept any particular bid and so can just treat the six month period as time for the person he intends to sell to to carray out surveys etc. Anything in fact other than actually exchange contracts.
What ACV status does do is remove permitted development rights, so requiring a planning application to be submitted. In the case of the Windmill it was also useful in challenging the Sainsburys application.
Bus stop approaching now!
Please excuse typos, as I'm on a rather shaky bus!
Unfortunately Lewisham removed the Windmill's ACV status following the Windmill's sale to Bernard Construction in April 2016. Legislation permits Councils to do that when there is a "relevant disposal" under the terms of the Act. (Edit: just to address appletree's comment, which crossed in the ether with my post - the ACV status didn't lapse, Lewisham took the decision to remove it following the sale. Many other Councils haven't chosen to exercise that right).
Speaking purely personally, I'm rather disappointed with the ACV legislation. It's useful in buying a stay of execution when an owner decides to sell, as they can't exchange contracts with anyone other than a community group for a six month period (always providing a community group has promptly expressed an interest in purchase ). But the owner isn't required to accept any particular bid and so can just treat the six month period as time for the person he intends to sell to to carray out surveys etc. Anything in fact other than actually exchange contracts.
What ACV status does do is remove permitted development rights, so requiring a planning application to be submitted. In the case of the Windmill it was also useful in challenging the Sainsburys application.
Bus stop approaching now!
Re: Windmill Victory
I couldn't agree more Rod with your "shared living room" analogy.
I don't want to spend my entire social life speaking only to "like minded" people and I love the sort of pubs that have a real mix of ages and outlooks.
As well as being able to table hop and meet people, one of the things that I liked about the Windmill was its adaptability. It's size and shape meant that noise levels were never overwhelming and that you could have a quiet conversation in one area, while people played snooker in another, someone else watched television, at the same time as a darts match may have been going on or a family gathered to celebrate an event in another.
Personally I find some low ceilinged bars can be too noisy for me. But horses for courses and hopefully Sydenham is big and open enough to be able to offer something for everyone.
Oh and the drinking of alcohol is optional! Though not to my taste, you could get a pint of lime and lemonade for 50p at the "old" Windmill.
It was also inclusive in that being a modern building it was fully DDA compliant, eg ground floor loo you could easily turn a wheelchair in. There were some disabled people who I believe lost their entire social life when the Windmill closed. So I do hope the new building will be equally welcoming and thoughtful in its design.
I don't want to spend my entire social life speaking only to "like minded" people and I love the sort of pubs that have a real mix of ages and outlooks.
As well as being able to table hop and meet people, one of the things that I liked about the Windmill was its adaptability. It's size and shape meant that noise levels were never overwhelming and that you could have a quiet conversation in one area, while people played snooker in another, someone else watched television, at the same time as a darts match may have been going on or a family gathered to celebrate an event in another.
Personally I find some low ceilinged bars can be too noisy for me. But horses for courses and hopefully Sydenham is big and open enough to be able to offer something for everyone.
Oh and the drinking of alcohol is optional! Though not to my taste, you could get a pint of lime and lemonade for 50p at the "old" Windmill.
It was also inclusive in that being a modern building it was fully DDA compliant, eg ground floor loo you could easily turn a wheelchair in. There were some disabled people who I believe lost their entire social life when the Windmill closed. So I do hope the new building will be equally welcoming and thoughtful in its design.
Re: Windmill Victory
In fairness the new building would have to be compatible with a wheelchair too. It's part of the building code: Building Regulations Document Part M, BS8300. The plans have a disabled toilet in addition to the male and female ones.
All bars allow you to buy lime and soda, lemonade and orange juice and a huge variety of non-alcoholic drinks.
I agree with Rods comment about shared living room. I get that from cafes too. I often talk with people on other tables in Brown and Green (although I hate it when the music is too loud). I find smaller, intimate spaces are where you will talk with other people, not large vast spaces. I didn't get a friendly vibe from the Windmill. I went in a couple of times and hated it.
I agree with Mary about low ceilings, although they can design that out with good acoustics, and large spaces can be loud too, even with high ceilings.
I hope that the new space is operated by someone who makes it sustainable and a local asset that is a genuinely nice place to be, that looks proud of where it is. Whether a pub or cafe doesn't really matter much personally. Buildings can change use to and from being pubs and bars. Large pubs are probably on their way out as smaller spaces take their place.
The newly opened Alexandra in Penge has a great following, I look forward to trying it out.
All bars allow you to buy lime and soda, lemonade and orange juice and a huge variety of non-alcoholic drinks.
I agree with Rods comment about shared living room. I get that from cafes too. I often talk with people on other tables in Brown and Green (although I hate it when the music is too loud). I find smaller, intimate spaces are where you will talk with other people, not large vast spaces. I didn't get a friendly vibe from the Windmill. I went in a couple of times and hated it.
I agree with Mary about low ceilings, although they can design that out with good acoustics, and large spaces can be loud too, even with high ceilings.
I hope that the new space is operated by someone who makes it sustainable and a local asset that is a genuinely nice place to be, that looks proud of where it is. Whether a pub or cafe doesn't really matter much personally. Buildings can change use to and from being pubs and bars. Large pubs are probably on their way out as smaller spaces take their place.
The newly opened Alexandra in Penge has a great following, I look forward to trying it out.
Last edited by leenewham on 26 Jul 2017 13:13, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Windmill Victory
I didn't make my point about the lemonad and lime at the Windmill clearly enough. I did say that dtinking alcohol in pubs wasnt compulsory, but i should have been clearer that it was the fact that the Windmill only charged 50p for a pint of lemonade and lime that I should have emphasised. I can't think of any other sydenham pub that make soft drinks so affordable.leenewham wrote:In fairness the new building would have to be compatible with a wheelchair too. It's part of the building code: Building Regulations Document Part M, BS8300. The plans have a disabled toilet in addition to the make and female ones.
All bars allow you to buy lime and soda, lemonade and orange juice and a huge variety of non-alcoholic drinks.
I agree with Rods comment about shared living room. I get that from cafes too. I often talk with people on other tables in Brown and Green (although I hate it when the music is too loud). I find smaller, intimate spaces are where you will talk with other people, not large vast spaces. I didn't get a friendly vibe from the Windmill. I went in a couple of times and hated it.
I agree with Mary about low ceilings, although they can design that out with good acoustics, and large spaces can be loud too, even with high ceilings.
I hope that the new space is operated by someone who makes it sustainable and a local asset that is a genuinely nice place to be, that looks proud of where it is. Whether a pub or cafe doesn't really matter much personally. Buildings can change use to and from being pubs and bars. Large pubs are probably on their way out as smaller spaces take their place.
The newly opened Alexandra in Penge has a great following, I look forward to trying it out.
Wetherspoons is one of the most successful pub chains. They built the Windmill because they couldn't at that time get their hands on the Capital, which is bigger. When the lease on the Capital became available just a few years later, they took the decision to sell the Windmill in favour of the larger Capital. I've spoken to Wetherspoons several times to try to get them to come back to the Windmill, but they say it's now too small for their current and future business models.
So, as i've said before, I think that in an area like ours we can have a variety of venues to suit all tastes. Personally I can't take the noise levels - from customers!- in low ceilinged bars. But that doesn't mean I want to see them change or close. The Windmill was already multi functional, mukti generational, light and airy and it could have been so much more.
One way forward for some of our pubs would have been to have hotel/b&b accommodation above them. Wetherspoons pubs all open for breakfast and the Windmill could easily do so too, if they had hotel rooms.
This area is short of decent hotel accommodation and guests would know what to expect from rooms above a pub, residents wouldn't have the problems raising a mortgage that was one if the reasons given by the Orb's developers for going back on their promise of a tapas type bar on the ground floor and going for change of use to an estate agency, and hotel guests would be less likely to make complaints about noise that could threaten a lively pub's viability than would residents of flats.
Re: Windmill Victory
Erm not sure with the appeal or sustainability of b&b' s or hotels in sydenham tbh!
I'm pretty sure whoever owns the flats above will have no problem renting or selling despite being above a potential pub or bar, If indeed that's what it turns out to be.
I'm pretty sure whoever owns the flats above will have no problem renting or selling despite being above a potential pub or bar, If indeed that's what it turns out to be.
Re: Windmill Victory
I'm not convinced that having a B&B or hotel on the site would solve the problems, although the Alexandra has a hostel above it. Having grown up in a hotel and a seaside town and family who have run B&B's, it's not the most profitable of ventures. It may make it easier for a bar to exist, but lots of bars, café's and restaurants have residential above them. Do we really need good hotel accommodation in Sydenham? With the likes of airB&B etc, is it really needed?
Was a tapas bar promised by the Orb Developers? The unit was advertised quite early on, did they have an operator lined up from an early stage? How can a developer promise something like that? It was advertised as class A1 retail and A3 restaurant back in 2015. Wetherspoons need to generate lots of trade to work, they are a lean business model. Was the Windmill always packed? I know in some of the high streets I've worked in that some Wetherspoons have closed due to lack of trade.
They just opened a Wetherspoons in my old home town in Ilfracombe. They bought a hotel which had stood for 150 years. After years of planning wrangles, they knocked it down, built flats and a smaller bar. No hotel. It's horrible! The old building was great. I find Wetherspoons souless, with pretty low rent, if cheap, food.
Was a tapas bar promised by the Orb Developers? The unit was advertised quite early on, did they have an operator lined up from an early stage? How can a developer promise something like that? It was advertised as class A1 retail and A3 restaurant back in 2015. Wetherspoons need to generate lots of trade to work, they are a lean business model. Was the Windmill always packed? I know in some of the high streets I've worked in that some Wetherspoons have closed due to lack of trade.
They just opened a Wetherspoons in my old home town in Ilfracombe. They bought a hotel which had stood for 150 years. After years of planning wrangles, they knocked it down, built flats and a smaller bar. No hotel. It's horrible! The old building was great. I find Wetherspoons souless, with pretty low rent, if cheap, food.
Re: Windmill Victory
Wetherspons in Exeter is great (quite near Ilfracombe....) - https://www.jdwetherspoon.com/pubs/all- ... ial-Exeterleenewham wrote:I'm not convinced that having a B&B or hotel on the site would solve the problems, although the Alexandra has a hostel above it. Having grown up in a hotel and a seaside town and family who have run B&B's, it's not the most profitable of ventures. It may make it easier for a bar to exist, but lots of bars, café's and restaurants have residential above them. Do we really need good hotel accommodation in Sydenham? With the likes of airB&B etc, is it really needed?
Was a tapas bar promised by the Orb Developers? The unit was advertised quite early on, did they have an operator lined up from an early stage? How can a developer promise something like that? It was advertised as class A1 retail and A3 restaurant back in 2015. Wetherspoons need to generate lots of trade to work, they are a lean business model. Was the Windmill always packed? I know in some of the high streets I've worked in that some Wetherspoons have closed due to lack of trade.
They just opened a Wetherspoons in my old home town in Ilfracombe. They bought a hotel which had stood for 150 years. After years of planning wrangles, they knocked it down, built flats and a smaller bar. No hotel. It's horrible! The old building was great. I find Wetherspoons souless, with pretty low rent, if cheap, food.
It is close to the University though so has quite a regular and enthusiastic clientele. A great venue - with an orangery like feel. However Exeter is also where Tim Martin, owner, lives - so maybe he wants to have a good one on his doorstep.
And imho you can't compare AirBnBs with hotels / Bed and breakfast. IN AirBnB you need to do a lot of work yourself (often) - in hotels, well the hotel does it for you - cook, clean up, serve, make beds etc. as well as serve drinks. Appeal to two different audiences.
Re: Windmill Victory
Hi Lee: I don't know if the developers of the Orb were ever serious, but they said they wanted a bar/restaurant/tapas type place on the ground floor. There would be cocktails. I was terrifically excited. SydSoc were very supportive.
But I don't know if the developers were really serious, because I'm told that the rent they were asking was off-puttingly high.
Next they went for change of use to retail, saying banks would not give mortgages to people living above bars.
Then change of use yet again: this time because Acorn wanted it as an estate agency.
Really sorry to hear about your experience with Wetherspoons. It sounds as though what they did to your old local is similar to what Bernard Construction say they plan for the Windmill. Except of course Bernard Construction aren't going to run a pub, but say they'll look for a tenant (I'll believe that if I ever get sight of a lease.)
I do know Wetherspoons are actively looking for large sites to convert to pub/hotel operations, but not the specifics. I know they do require a larger footprint for their operation than the Windmill can offer and they specify the premises must have a garden. The Windmill at present only has a patio at the back. Having explored the roof, I would have thought that as part of a remodel it could make a great pub garden.
I used to travel for work quite extensively, both alone and with a team. Airbnb didn't exist in my day, but from what I've heard about them and what Sydenham writes they don't sound as if they would have worked for me. I would often arrive late and pubs were the perfect place to stay. They usually had car parks, you could check in at any time and know you could get a quick meal and a drink in the bar before heading on up the wooden hill. All nicely self contained and no having to wander around a strange and often desolate town on a Monday night looking for somewhere I could eat on my expenses allowance.
But I don't know if the developers were really serious, because I'm told that the rent they were asking was off-puttingly high.
Next they went for change of use to retail, saying banks would not give mortgages to people living above bars.
Then change of use yet again: this time because Acorn wanted it as an estate agency.
Really sorry to hear about your experience with Wetherspoons. It sounds as though what they did to your old local is similar to what Bernard Construction say they plan for the Windmill. Except of course Bernard Construction aren't going to run a pub, but say they'll look for a tenant (I'll believe that if I ever get sight of a lease.)
I do know Wetherspoons are actively looking for large sites to convert to pub/hotel operations, but not the specifics. I know they do require a larger footprint for their operation than the Windmill can offer and they specify the premises must have a garden. The Windmill at present only has a patio at the back. Having explored the roof, I would have thought that as part of a remodel it could make a great pub garden.
I used to travel for work quite extensively, both alone and with a team. Airbnb didn't exist in my day, but from what I've heard about them and what Sydenham writes they don't sound as if they would have worked for me. I would often arrive late and pubs were the perfect place to stay. They usually had car parks, you could check in at any time and know you could get a quick meal and a drink in the bar before heading on up the wooden hill. All nicely self contained and no having to wander around a strange and often desolate town on a Monday night looking for somewhere I could eat on my expenses allowance.
Re: Windmill Victory
Exeter is about a 60 mile, 1.5 hours away from Ilfracombe! That's not 'quite near!'. I'm sure some Wetherspoons are in nice buildings, I'm sure there are different people in them. There are Wetherspoons all over the place. The one in Ilfracombe is (in my view) awful. The food is pretty standard in all of them, and is, in my view, poor, but cheap. You get what you pay for.Sydenham wrote:leenewham wrote:
Wetherspons in Exeter is great (quite near Ilfracombe....) - https://www.jdwetherspoon.com/pubs/all- ... ial-Exeter
And imho you can't compare AirBnBs with hotels / Bed and breakfast. IN AirBnB you need to do a lot of work yourself (often) - in hotels, well the hotel does it for you - cook, clean up, serve, make beds etc. as well as serve drinks. Appeal to two different audiences.
I'm not a fan of AirBNB. I know some people who do it (locally) and swear by it. The people who stay with them are quite varied, which surprised me. Yes, I know hotels are differen't from AirBnB. I grew up in a hotel. I've even stayed in them! I can quite confidently say they are different to other means of staying overnight, like in a tent. My point/question though is 'is there a demand for a small hotel in Kirkdale? No, I doubt it. Would it bring Wetherspoons back? No. Would it make a bar more likely or financially viable? Not in my opinion. Would it be less likely to be objected to by people buying flats above the bar. Possibly, but plenty of bars exist with residential above'.*
*All written with a smile
Re: Windmill Victory
Just to clarify, It wasn't my old local as it was a hotel with a bar in it. It was a nice building I liked in the town I used to live in. They (wetherspoons) changed the plans, just like the developers of the Orb did. New builds tend to be fairly expensive when they rent out commercial. But they managed it in Perry Vale, and they seem to be doing well (although with great footfall opposite the station). I've been in lots of Wetherspoons. I don't like the Capitol as a pub, but I love the building. I'd rather have something small and intimate like the Blythe Hill Tavern.marymck wrote:Hi Lee: I don't know if the developers of the Orb were ever serious, but they said they wanted a bar/restaurant/tapas type place on the ground floor. There would be cocktails. I was terrifically excited. SydSoc were very supportive.
But I don't know if the developers were really serious, because I'm told that the rent they were asking was off-puttingly high.
Next they went for change of use to retail, saying banks would not give mortgages to people living above bars.
Then change of use yet again: this time because Acorn wanted it as an estate agency.
Really sorry to hear about your experience with Wetherspoons. It sounds as though what they did to your old local is similar to what Bernard Construction say they plan for the Windmill. Except of course Bernard Construction aren't going to run a pub, but say they'll look for a tenant (I'll believe that if I ever get sight of a lease.)
I do know Wetherspoons are actively looking for large sites to convert to pub/hotel operations, but not the specifics. I know they do require a larger footprint for their operation than the Windmill can offer and they specify the premises must have a garden. The Windmill at present only has a patio at the back. Having explored the roof, I would have thought that as part of a remodel it could make a great pub garden.
I used to travel for work quite extensively, both alone and with a team. Airbnb didn't exist in my day, but from what I've heard about them and what Sydenham writes they don't sound as if they would have worked for me. I would often arrive late and pubs were the perfect place to stay. They usually had car parks, you could check in at any time and know you could get a quick meal and a drink in the bar before heading on up the wooden hill. All nicely self contained and no having to wander around a strange and often desolate town on a Monday night looking for somewhere I could eat on my expenses allowance.
Anyway, moving forward, as it looks like it was be developed and a smaller pub put in with residential above, what happens next? Isn't it to everyones advantage to try to get a good operator in space with the minimum of fuss and maximum support to create a great, interesting, attractive business in the space? If Wetherspoons were after a large space, I'd have thought they would find the old sorting office an interesting prospect.
I like the new Journey cafe in Kirkdale. But it's a shame about Fig and Pistachio. Kirkdale is a bit two steps forward and two steps back with some large empty voids that over 10 years later are still a blight with no commercial tennants. Fingers crossed for the future.
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MovedtoSydenham
- Posts: 3
- Joined: 26 Jul 2017 13:50
- Location: Sydenham
Re: Windmill Victory
Hello!
I just moved to Sydenham, and am originally from Holland. In my old residential neighborhood in Amsterdam, we had loads of little bars and restaurants in flat fronted buildings with apartments above: like this one: https://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPho ... vince.html
So, it's possible
It would be great if this would become a nice pub or (better, I think) restaurant. A place where you could also eat on a week night if you didn't feel like cooking and wanted a treat. There would be a market for it... I would be a customer
I think Sydenham is great, and there are lots of opportunities to make it better!
I just moved to Sydenham, and am originally from Holland. In my old residential neighborhood in Amsterdam, we had loads of little bars and restaurants in flat fronted buildings with apartments above: like this one: https://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPho ... vince.html
So, it's possible
It would be great if this would become a nice pub or (better, I think) restaurant. A place where you could also eat on a week night if you didn't feel like cooking and wanted a treat. There would be a market for it... I would be a customer
I think Sydenham is great, and there are lots of opportunities to make it better!
Re: Windmill Victory
Hi MovedtoSydenham and a warm welcome to you. I hope you'll be very happy here.MovedtoSydenham wrote:Hello!
I just moved to Sydenham, and am originally from Holland. In my old residential neighborhood in Amsterdam, we had loads of little bars and restaurants in flat fronted buildings with apartments above: like this one: https://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPho ... vince.html
So, it's possible
It would be great if this would become a nice pub or (better, I think) restaurant. A place where you could also eat on a week night if you didn't feel like cooking and wanted a treat. There would be a market for it... I would be a customer
I think Sydenham is great, and there are lots of opportunities to make it better!
I really hope all works well at the new Windmill and my fears are unfounded. The cafe in your link looks great. Sadly the new Windmill won't have an outside space, but the Dolphin has a lovely garden at the back and plans for seating to the front.
We have a bit of a problem with licensing laws here in England. I'm not sure if it's the same in the rest of the UK or EU? In England we used to have a rule about "coming to the nuisance", whereby if someone bought a flat above a noisy high street bar they were supposed to accept a certain amount of disturbance. But now the law is different. Venues can no longer use a defence of "they came to the nuisance" and can and do lose their licences. We've lost some long established live music venues in London this way ... especially in areas that are either getting fancy new apartments (what we used to call "gentrification"), like parts of Soho, or already affluent, like Knightsbridge.
We do have some great places to eat in Sydenham. Apart from 161 Food+Drink our Kirkdale bars and pubs don't serve food. Naturally I hope that will change! But do please try Hibagon - a Japanese restaurant on Kirkdale - if you haven't already done so. The salmon don with black garlic sauce is especially yummy.
Re: Windmill Victory
Ideas about hotels, B&Bs, multi-storey pubs and roof terraces on Kirkdale all sound good but I think the plans approved by the planning committee are more likely to succeed and appeal to a business owner. I'm sure the residential units will be snapped up.
Mary as a member of the Sydenham Society planning committee can you let us know whether the Society plans to appeal the decision on behalf of the community or take any other action that might delay the development?
Mary as a member of the Sydenham Society planning committee can you let us know whether the Society plans to appeal the decision on behalf of the community or take any other action that might delay the development?