Save Beer Rebellion - we need your help!

[scottlawrencelondon]

So, the old BR site is going to be "a comedy venue with stand-up, improv, classes and workshops, and day time kids events".

Sounds like there is some delusion over the size of this venue

[Lord Summerisle]

Well I'm really sad to see the BR go as I think it was a truly wonderful community pub and it's a terrible shame it couldn't be sustained. However, if that's what it is then so be it. I shall get behind the comedy venue and it surely can only be a good thing for the area, something new, diverse and interesting. Hopefully it'll be good fun, gotta give it a try surely?

[KPR]

Much as I hope they succeed, I think they have their work cut out - the location is too small for profitable comedy I would think and in the wrong place. Assuming they have a bar, how many seated punters can they fit in there? No more than a couple of dozen. Someone wanting to launch something like that would be better off taking over Zanzibar (still looking for a new tenant, according to the sign outside). Pre-Beer Revolution the 'kids events plus' thing was tried in there and didn't last long.

[tonyhorse]

Considering the evolving demographic of Sydenham we need a more family friendly, inviting place than a dreary old bar/pub with a niche audience. Sorry to be harsh!

[leenewham]

Pre-Beer Revolution the 'kids events plus' thing was tried in there and didn't last long.

In fairness it was a pop up for trialing new businesses. The kids events were pretty busy, we went to a few and the food in the cafe was really, really good. It was never supposed to be permanent and was there until someone took it on as an ongoing concern long term. That was the Beer Rebellion.

I liked the idea of the Beer Rebellion, but I only went 3 times. It was nice as a cosy place to go with friends, but I never really liked Late Knights beers and the last time this guy who was off his face outstayed his 'charm' after a few hours. I'd probably use what is proposed more than anything though, if it's good. It has potential. It's a shame it appears to have got the lease in a rather underhand way in competition with the community pub (although we haven't heard their side of the story).

[KPR]

Ok - I thought the previous people (Marketplace something) gave up because it wasn't making money, not because they were temporary? They started off as part of the Portas thing, I think, but I thought at some point they went permanent but ended up giving up? They were there for at least a year as I remember it. I went in there a few times, and sometimes it was busy and they did sell some interesting stuff alongside the food, but I think anything food or drink related is bound to struggle there because it is a) no man's land and b) isn't really big enough. Was Beer Rebellion making a profit there? The other side of the road a bit further down (by the Gallery and the Indian) would seem to have more scope to me - the shops are bigger and it feels more like somewhere people would go to eat or drink (the front door of BR is right on the road which means it's noisy in the summer with the door open for one thing).

[leenewham]

The Marketplace was a pop-up. They often last a long time. The on in Penge (Pengetout) is similar, there was another in Croydon that lasted over a year. As far as I know it was never intended to be permanent, but as a means to learn and trial businesses.

There are other places that are better for businesses, but Sydenham doesn't have many cheap, available properties, which is actually holding it back. This was an issue with the pop ups and explains why some appeared in the positions that they did. Most of the pop ups ended up with long term businesses in them, so in many regards it was a success.

Empty shops often lead to regeneration. That's why you find some areas, like King Cross, which take years to regenerate as landlords buy up properties in order to refurbish and get new tenants in. Some places it happens organically, some are managed, like Marylebone (I believe they control rents there too so the businesses they believe are healthy for the high street are supported).

The Marketplace/Beer Rebellion site is challenging, there is no footfall. But The Alfred pub isn't in a great position either. With the right product/service and promotion, it could work. Many businesses exist on high streets with little footfall.

[leenewham]

When did I say the 'for profit model' was the only model for the high street?

I don't think that!

I'm all for 'not for profit', community run business. I'm all for charity shops, I'm all for interesting businesses or anything viable. All businesses need to make money to be viable though. They have to compete for custom. They have to pay their bills etc. But for profit isn't (and shouldn't be in my view) their primary course for existing. Profit etc is a result of what you do, it's rather sad if that's the only reason why you do it.

I was one of the people who you messaged, I thought I had replied. Appologies if I hadn't.

[monkeyarms]

There are other places that are better for businesses, but Sydenham doesn't have many cheap, available properties, which is actually holding it back.

That just doesn't match what I see at all. Whenever I see commercial properties being advertised for sale or for rent on Sydenham's high street, I'm always surprised at just how cheap they are, which is what makes the high street situation all the more frustrating. I suspect that longstanding low-rents are the only reason that all those "occasionally open" Lower Sydenham businesses like the upholsterers or the bike shop or the Lovely Gallery could remain in business. Their monthly overheads must be very, very low, otherwise they'd have gone bust long ago.

Beer Rebellion's rent was very little (which is presumably why its new leaseholders can afford to take their own sweet time doing the renovations themselves and not be making any revenue for a few months). I was genuinely surprised at how low its monthly rent was. The reason Beer Rebellion was failing was that it made zero effort to bring in punters: it expected them to just turn up because of being itself. If it had had an events/publicity manager, it might have done a lot better.

The rents must surely also be relatively cheap at the bottom-of-Kirkdale businesses like the sportswear shop and Inkwa Tattoos or that hairdressers next to the petrol station, or the mysterious "Mmsar" (which has remained shuttered up ever since "Mmsar" took over the incredibly cheap annual lease). Simply because there's hardly ever anyone in them. Don't think I've ever seen a single customer in the sportswear place. (Have I ever even seen it open?! Not sure)

I'd be very surprised if the new vaping shop on the high street can be paying much of a hugely challenging rent, given its product and, from what I can see, lack of customers. (Unless e-cigarettes cost 50 quid a pop that is... I wouldn't know....)
The only commercial properties I've seen advertised in Sydenham where I thought the price asked seemed to be expensive (or, more accurately, in line with say Brixton or East Dulwich) were the recent around-the-Greyhound units. I'm not surprised they've gone to big-name estate agents. That said, the asking price for the Greyhound itself seemed to be a pretty good deal (and I suspect it went for a fair bit under asking price; I would guess around £700,000).

Commercial properties seem to come up quite often in Sydenham. One astute developer in Lower Sydenham recently took advantage of this easy-pickings situation by buying a corner-situated commercial property for peanuts and then getting planning permission to turn it residential: et voila, a ground-floor-and-basement 2-bed flat for half the price. If you really wanted a commercial property on Sydenham's long high street, it seems to me they come up fairly frequently; I can think of a couple currently being advertised. Plus, if you were determined and impatient to open a new business, there are a few 'mystery units' too, such as that largish corner unit (a former nursery/childcare/education place?) that says it was "acquired by Pedder". Presumably Pedder wouldn't be adverse to leasing it, if they received a decent offer.

[leenewham]

The Golden Grill in Lower Sydenham is 35k a year rent. It makes a profit of under 30k a year apparently.
2nd creation hair in Lower Sydenham is 13.5k a year rent plus 20k premium. It's 800 square ft
Kebabish is on the market too. 20k a year plus £6700 rates, plus premium for the equipment.

All of the units for sale seem to sell the business as a going concern. The new businesses will appear the same. The units are spaced out too, so any change is diluted.

None of these are particularly cheap, especially considering footfall at the bottom of the high street or some isolated units such as the Mmsar, which seems to operate mostly online.

The 'it may be' Nandos site in Kirkdale is 100k a year rent according to Acorn.

There are units for similar prices to Sydenham on the market in Penge, Forest Hill, East Dulwich etc.

For comparison, I'm working with a client in North London on a property next to a busy supermarket, it's 9k a year rent. I worked in an area in North London and they had many empty shops. Rents were lower, we helped spruce it up and it has 100% occupancy with an interesting array of local businesses. When the new businesses started going in, the change was visible and it attracted more new businesses to invest (and council were instrumental too in attracting them to the area).

There are empty units here, but not enough and they aren't cheap enough.

[Pally]

For comparison, I'm working with a client in North London on a property next to a busy supermarket, it's 9k a year rent. I worked in an area in North London and they had many empty shops. Rents were lower, we helped spruce it up and it has 100% occupancy with an interesting array of local businesses. When the new businesses started going in, the change was visible and it attracted more new businesses to invest (and council were instrumental too in attracting them to the area).

There are empty units here, but not enough and they aren't cheap enough.

Lee - why is there such a massive difference between the rent where you are working in N London and Sydenham? I don't understand how or why that happens?

[monkeyarms]

Can't remember what Beer Rebellion's monthly rent was but it was nothing like £20K per year. It was cheap enough that one of the former managers was considering keeping it on just as storage, so it must have been comparable with general storage rental.

This corner unit here is under £1000 per month:
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/commercial-p ... 38550.html

The hairdressers at 13.5K per year rent doesn't strike me as huge; frankly that £900/month that Lee cites in North London is about as cheap as you're gonna get anywhere in the capital.

I agree that what they're asking for Kebashish and Golden Grill is a rip-off. But surely if they can't get that, and someone makes them an offer that's much lower, they would presumably consider it. I'm tempted, purely in the name of research, to phone up a couple of these agents and see how they reply if I were to pose as a buyer offering them half what they're asking.

[mosy]

monkeyarms, if you do, would you mind asking first what the rates are (first might be better lol) pls? Rates are never quoted in ads that I've looked at for some reason.

[leenewham]

[quote="leenewham"
Lee - why is there such a massive difference between the rent where you are working in N London and Sydenham? I don't understand how or why that happens?

It's just good value and the current business isn't that busy. Rents, like house prices vary. They tend to float upwards to the last maximum and everyone wants to achieve that. Some are sold off as going concerns rather than empty units, which keeps prices higher.

My point is that empty units are generally cheaper which attract interesting businesses who want to minimise risk. The more empty shops the lower the cost. These could be on the fringes of a town centre with little footfall (like Late Knights), or a side road that has fallen out of favour (Mape Road in Penge for instance). The busier the town centre, the more brands, the higher the rent, in general terms.

About 8 years ago I worked at an agency in Central London and nearby there was a new development nearby that came on the market that had a vastly increased rent. The agencies rent went up by 50% due to a rent review. A little while later, that new development was empty. My employers rent didn't go down.

That's sort of how it works.

[Miss0]

Hello neighbours! It’s great that so many people have taken an interest in our Poodle Club (sorry monkeyarms, we like the ‘naff’ name so I’m afraid you’ll have to get used to it.) We hope that you will all come down and enjoy some great live comedy once we finally finish renovations. My husband and I have been talking about opening our own little club for 10 years and so we are thrilled to finally be making our dream into a reality right in our own backyard.

In addition to the major renovations required to make the venue less shabby and bring it up to code (new drainage, plumbing, electrics, etc.), we are also investing in acoustic insulation for the ceiling where there had been none, so there will no longer be an understandably upset family living upstairs which will be of interest the community-minded here.

Speaking of which, please let me clear up one thing: at no time did we ever attend any meeting referred to in previous postings, which I agree, would have been a ‘’shitty’’ thing to do. I cannot fathom why anyone would want to say that we had. If anyone is confused and thinks that we did attend this meeting, please do pop round for a chat so we can figure out together how such a misunderstanding occurred. We simply learned that the venue was vacant, and contacted the leaseholder to make an offer, which was accepted.

Oh, and since there was some speculation about why it sat empty for four months after our offer was accepted - it was three sets of solicitors taking two weeks to answer each email! We had planned to be open in July for the Sydenham Arts Festival, but alas, we were thwarted by lazy lawyers.

In summation, we want to thank all the lovely people who have stopped by to say ‘hello’ and wish us well, it is genuinely cheering to feel so welcomed on the High Street. And my apologies to anyone whose aesthetic sensibilities will be offended by the kitsch “Liberace” interior styling. For die-hard Beer Rebellion decor fans, there is a timber yard in Catford you can visit when feeling nostalgic.

[topofthehill]

Thank you for clearing this up and best wishes for your new venture.
Will all parts of the venue,including toilets, be disabled friendly and will you have an ice machine (previously lacking)?

[Miss0]

Will all parts of the venue,including toilets, be disabled friendly and will you have an ice machine (previously lacking)?

We will have an ice machine, we are not Barbarians.

We plan to install an induction loop for hearing-impaired guests, and are building a moveable ramp for the front door to employ when chair-users visit and one to the stage for wheelie comedians. We are currently struggling with how we could possibly make the small narrow toilets accessible, as we are limited in terms of making major structural changes to a rented property.

[prince]

Will all parts of the venue,including toilets, be disabled friendly and will you have an ice machine (previously lacking)?

We will have an ice machine, we are not Barbarians.

We plan to install an induction loop for hearing-impaired guests, and are building a moveable ramp for the front door to employ when chair-users visit and one to the stage for wheelie comedians. We are currently struggling with how we could possibly make the small narrow toilets accessible, as we are limited in terms of making major structural changes to a rented property.

I haven't got an ice machine. Does that mean I'm a barbarian?

[topofthehill]

Beer Rebellion did not have an ice machine. However, I would not call them barbarians.

[Larky]

Welcome Miss0

Rod Taylor - leave them alone

Can we welcome and encourage new business to Sydenham, we moan that no companies are interested in Sydenham, when they do, we knock them down. New companies who are looking to invest in Sydenham, must wonder if they read this forum.

We welcome all new business, even those we may not like !