sydenham needs an uplifting

[Pally]

Well as it happens I have seen same families with kids in both but as to their "class" ...its not really how I define people wen I see/think about them!

I will visit the park cafe soon!!

[leenewham]

The signage company did the fit out in Brown and Green, I know him well. His dad was a signwriter and he's a very nice and talented guy and a family run business. It was designed that way and their coffee prices are far less than the likes of Cafe Nero/ Mc Donalds, Start bucks etc. The Brown and Green café offers good quality food and they should be applauded. Running then down because they aren't really cheap is unfair. Their prices, I believe, are fair and their prices reflect the quality. You don't pay extra for the decor. You pay extra for rates, quality, and costs. Their prices are the same as their other cafes. There is nothing wrong with a business being a nice place to be or looking proud of itself.

I don't know what 'class' the people are who use it as I haven't asked them. I still don't know what middle class means. I like it a lot. There are lots of really cheap cafes in Sydenham. Picking on Brown & Green because it's not cheap enough for some is extremely unfair.

I remember what East Dulwich as like years ago too. East Dulwich's demographics changed, people started moving there because of the housing and streets and it's proximity to Dulwich Village. Herne Hill did the same thing. The same thing is happening in West Norwood. The residents are changing and that is changing the high street. High Streets generally change after demographics. I go to East Dulwich as it has really good charity shops and it's a nice place to be and the occasional treat such as their cinema or a nice restaurant. I think it has a pretty good mix in general. I don't see it becoming like some parts of Clapham.

Beckenham is actually cheaper than many properties in Sydenham and I'd argue it's got a pretty decent high street. Many expensive properties aren't near a high street. There are many factors that make house prices expensive, only a tiny part are what shops are nearby. To say otherwise is without evidence and pure conjecture.

[The Lady]

I like the Mayow park cafe but I agree with KPR that it's expensive. I think that a park cafe should be inclusive for all as it should benefit the whole community. Lots of people couldn't afford family meals/snacks there.

[KPR]

Just to pick up one point - B&G is definitely not cheaper than McDonalds and I doubt it's cheaper than Costa or Starbucks. What you're paying for is something that holds itself out as better than your average greasy spoon, clearly, and the food to be fair isn't bad. Fact remains though that the place could have been different and more inclusive - as I said above, see the cafe in CP Park for an example. There is (or was) a much greater social mix in there.

People are pretending here that they don't understand what class is. Sorry, but unless you're a foreigner, that isn't true. I have never (seriously, I mean never) seen working class people in B&G. How do I recognise the middle classes - by speech mainly, the same way that all British people can recognise someone else's social class. But also their kids' names. And their sense of entitlement. Denying this is just funny.

[KPR]

And just to add that I agree that it doesn't matter if cafes in the high street differentiate on price - but I do think it matters in the Park. Two reasons - one, it means that some users of the Park are excluded, and two it's a publicly owned building so in my view more consideration should have been given to the business proposition before Lewisham rented it to them (assuming there were alternative proposals).

[leenewham]

You recognize classes by the way they speak?

Honestly?

Perhaps this might be true in a Dickens novel, but, well, it's 2017 isn't it?

Can you explain this? You may have to give me a lesson in how to spot accents of different classes. I remember a newspaper referring to Pippa Middleton as 'middle class'.

What does 'Lee' make me class wise? What about Rod. Or Anne. Or Thomas. Or Betty. Or Val?

This is hilarious!

Starbucks are around £2.25 for a small latte by the way. Get some of their fancy drinks and it's a lot, lot more.

I love Brown & Greens breakfasts and they offer something different to the usual Mr Whippy ice cream by the playground in their freezer. If it was bog standard, cheap as chips, I wouldn't use the cafe as I see it as a treat. I'd rather wait until I have a bit of cash and treat myself to something special that I really want rather than something for the sake of it. Or I'd take a picnic.

No business is going to please everyone (clearly). But at least is a family run, viable business that is very successful and employs local people. I'd gladly pay 26p more for a far superior coffee in Brown and Green, served in a real glass, than a paper cup in the tax avoiding McDonalds.

Go to Crystal Palace Park and check out their prices and quality. Or Battersea Park. Or many other parks.

[Pally]

KPR are you for real? By their speech? The names of their children! Funny? What planet/class are you on? Give me strength! But carry on " not believing" me!! :

[stuart]

KPR are you for real? By their speech? The names of their children! Funny? What planet/class are you on? Give me strength! But carry on " not believing" me!! :

Yep, Wot class am I? What class are my kids?

I know what class I was born in - as does my partner (clue - they were different). Those classes died decades ago - do catch up KPR. Most of us here are a bit cosmopolitan still appreciating the best of what was working and middle class values. Trouble is some have picked up the worst bits of both.

I think they call themselves 'Young Professionals'. But I wouldn't, that's a bit unkind.

Stuart

[Robin Orton]

I am neither young nor professional, but I am quite sure I am middle class. More precisely, I was born lower middle class but have fought my way upwards to middle middle class. I now say 'sitting room' rather than 'lounge', and 'Sorry?' rather than 'Pardon?' I voted 'remain' and go to chamber music concerts. No brainer, I think.

[stuart]

More precisely, I was born lower middle class but have fought my way upwards to middle middle class.

But did you vote for the middle middle class party? And how did you work out which one it was?

Stuart

[Robin Orton]

But did you vote for the middle middle class party?

Yes.

And how did you work out which one it was?

People like us just have a sort of instinct for that sort of thing.

[stuart]

People like us just have a sort of instinct for that sort of thing.

Oh dear. Looks like I now know what I am not ....

Stuart

[Robin Orton]

Now don't get chippy, Stuart. I am sure that there are lots of people of quite humble status who are nevertheless able to make wonderful contributions to society.

[stuart]

Now don't get chippy, Stuart. I am sure that there are lots of people of quite humble status who are nevertheless able to make wonderful contributions to society.

OK, I shall just have to be useful rather than middle class. But it would be nice to have had a choice

Stuart

[GillM]

This is a seriously funny thread! KPR still describing people as middle class and working class by the way they speak and what they have named their children! It reminds me of the sketch from The Frost report with Cleese, Barker and Corbett from the sixties ( you young ones google it).

House prices in Sydenham seem to be doing incredibly well without "gentrification" (god I hate that word - pure Estate agent garbage). From approx £400k to £1,850,000 currently for sale in Sydenham according to Rightmove. Regarding the shops in the high street, I agree with Lee that the demographic will determine what is relevant. Look beyond Musti's pound plus etc and we have a cake shop that supplies to famous people, a fantastic bookshop, DIY shop, gastro pub, family pub, Bob's wine shop, soon to be Nando's, lovely butcher and fishmonger and greengrocer, Trat Raff, Next, Costa, Toys are us etc etc I could go on. As for East Dulwich,that's not a real high street its full of restaurants and Cafes. Jo Jo mamma thingybod does not entice me there.

You would probably class me as working class. Left school at 15, no university degree, not even a GCE, but I have worked for some of the biggest names in the City. Had to liaise with Downing St, Buckingham Palace, Knights of the realm (even introduced to the Queen and Prince Phillip). Not one of those people treated me as of a lower class than them, but equally I never felt they were better than me because they spoke in a "posh" accent or their children were called Henrietta or Camilla! My old dad used to say..if you have to work for a living,then you are working class and most of the upper classes haven't got a pot to pee in!

KPR you sure you are not Katie Hopkins having a laugh whilst looking for a new job! Ha ha. Oh by the way I have never been in On the hoof or Brown and Green, but I have eaten in some of the finest Michelin star restaurants. Honestly us working class oiks going above the station, whatever next.

[Pally]

GillM ...good post! Sums it all up really. You are right, Sydenham has lots going for it ...I wish it could somehow start moving to the next level of appeal tho, with all those advantages. Wont revisit all the ideas, suggestions, views expressed on this in other threads

I have been playing a little game with myself...re names ...eg William ...looking at my "working class" family tree, loads of Williams tilling the land or mining or what ever ...so when did it become suitable for the future king ...oh and several previous kings? ( assuming royalty are "upper class" ofcourse ..oh they must be, listening to how they talk!!) Hmm ...all very confusing!!!

[Robin Orton]

( assuming royalty are "upper class" ofcourse ..oh they must be, listening to how they talk!!)

Actually, I think the royal family are a bit nouveau. German immigrants, you know.

[leenewham]

I'll just throw this in. If a shop improves it's appearance and looks great from the outside but it's essentially the same business and its prices are the same, do people think that's a good thing?

[Pally]

I'll just throw this in. If a shop improves it's appearance and looks great from the outside but it's essentially the same business and its prices are the same, do people think that's a good thing?

Yes!! First impressions, draws people in ....etc etc!!

[mosy]

leenewham, I don't think anyone would object to some shops having a frontage tidy-up (why would they?) although there aren't that many bad ones given the total number. The biggest complaint seems to be that some people just don't seem to like useful everyday shops that they don't themselves use, despite that Sydenham Rd is teaming with "everyday" shoppers rather than those working up town who are probably looking for nights out when they get back rather than utility shops. A coat of paint won't change that.