Reduction in services from London Bridge

[Con]

Has anyone noticed how much the service from London Bridge has been cut? We only get two direct trains an hour at peak times. From 6pm to 7pm there is only one direct train. This is absolutely terrible.
Just a few years back trains were every every 15 to 20 mins off peak.

[oluwababe]

Its cause these people cant be bothered to run services properly.

Normally Its 4tph towards London Bridge unless the strike is still on

[squashst]

I went onto Train Line for next Monday and Wednesday and the services are 17:06, 17:37, 18:14, 18:36 (and the 18:14 is actually change at New Cross Gate and get Overground).

There seems to be something really weird with the London Bridge to Victoria route. I typed in London Bridge to Victoria on Monday evening and there aren't any! Trainline tells you to go Elephant Castle go to Blackfriars and get the tube!

But I went into London Bridge today and there are trains to Victoria running.

So the long and short of it is its totally unclear. Maybe Southern has decided to axe Bridge to Victoria trains in the week (but I can't find any advice of this). Or its something to do with London Bridge development. I shall email Southern and suggest others do the same.

[squashst]

Sent email query in. It will apparently take Southern 20 days to reply due to high volume of complaints. Best to wfh if you can or get the 17:06/36 if you can't. At least if there are long delays the toilet facilities at Lon Bridge are free to use.

[nasaroc]

Sending letters or emails to Southern simply isn't going to have any effect. At the height of the crisis earlier in the year at Victoria and London Bridge stations when Southern services almost ground to a halt, Southern received over 5,000 emails and letters of complaint per day. It didn't solve the problems or turn them into an efficient rail provider.

Southern are currently consulting on changes to services due to start in two years time. These proposals will involve significant cuts to services from Sydenham to London Bridge during the morning rush hour (from 6 trains per hour to 4 trains per hour). In addition Southern are proposing to stop trains at each station for an extra minute - as a result the journey from Sydenham to London Bridge will take almost 5 minutes longer and on the "loop line" to Victoria over 8 minutes longer. In addition, they've come up with a further delaying plan to stop every loop line train for five minutes at Crystal Palace. Yes that's right - the train is on time and it's held at CP station for five minutes! This is all about saving Southern from potential fines - it isn't about Providing a good service.

How do I know this? Because the Sydenham and Forest Hill Societies held a face-to-face meeting with Southern just a few days ago. We intend to have further meetings with our MP and London Assembly member shortly.

This isn't an exclusive club. I'd welcome others getting involved in the campaign to improve our local rail services.

So are any of you willing to join such a campaign?

You won't change the local rail system by sending emails or posting complaints on websites. Only face-to-face action and collective protest will do that.

The reason I rarely post on this forum is that I've found it totally ineffective in providing that form of change.

Why not prove me wrong.

In the meantime, please respond to the rail consultation http://www.southernrailway.com/your-jou ... sultation/


Barry Milton

[Ronski]

What a terrible survey on their page, like they designed it to be the least effective way of asking the questions. I guess filling it in is the only effective way to show how many object.

[rustya]

I have responded,and the survey is not really clear in terms of which questions affect us.
It is all over the place.
I have left comments suggesting they improve/intensify our services rather than
a) slowing them down
B) cutting/restricting them.

I urge all users of this forum to spread the word and save our services. (SOS) !

[Sydenham Syd]

"Southern are currently consulting on changes to services due to start in two years time. These proposals will involve significant cuts to services from Sydenham to London Bridge during the morning rush hour (from 6 trains per hour to 4 trains per hour). In addition Southern are proposing to stop trains at each station for an extra minute - as a result the journey from Sydenham to London Bridge will take almost 5 minutes longer and on the "loop line" to Victoria over 8 minutes longer. In addition, they've come up with a further delaying plan to stop every loop line train for five minutes at Crystal Palace. Yes that's right - the train is on time and it's held at CP station for five minutes! This is all about saving Southern from potential fines - it isn't about Providing a good service.

Barry Milton"

Hi Barry,

Thanks for this - what do you mean potential fines? Is this because they can't get anywhere near a guarantee they will run on time, and thus they are derisking by running less trains? That is absurd if the case - regulation is not supposed to hamper in that way.
Is that really why they are changing from 6 trains p/h to 4? If they start more of them from Crystal Palace then fine as there will be sufficient room, but the 7.36/7.48 and the 7.56 are all pretty full now, so hacking one of those seems slightly strange.

[nasaroc]

At the moment commuter trains (not long distance intercity trains) are only officially late if they do not arrive within five minutes of their scheduled arrival time. The government, quite correctly, aims to tighten these rules in two years time to financially penalise companies who consistently break these time scales and reward companies who in general run their trains on time. Hence Southern's less than subtle attempts to "rewrite the timetable" to avoid fines.

We will get two more Overground trains per hour running between Crystal Palace and Highbury and Islington in the next eighteen months. This is welcome news but we need more trains during the rush hour to London Bridge - particularly as a Southern trains can carry twice as many passengers than an Overground train.

Southern will argue that overcrowding on the line (too many trains operating) means that they have to cut their rush hour trains. But there's no truth in this claim - I've checked this with Network Rail and the various train regulators.

[Hissing Syd]

Many thanks for the detailed information, Barry, much appreciated. I rely on the trains and would be potentially up for getting involved, but as with the gentleman who posted about shop fronts recently, can you be more specific about what that entails/what is needed? It's hard to say whether one can get involved without knowing exactly what with.

Thanks!

[Likelife]

At the moment commuter trains (not long distance intercity trains) are only officially late if they do not arrive within five minutes of their scheduled arrival time. The government, quite correctly, aims to tighten these rules in two years time to financially penalise companies who consistently break these time scales and reward companies who in general run their trains on time. Hence Southern's less than subtle attempts to "rewrite the timetable" to avoid fines.

We will get two more Overground trains per hour running between Crystal Palace and Highbury and Islington in the next eighteen months. This is welcome news but we need more trains during the rush hour to London Bridge - particularly as a Southern trains can carry twice as many passengers than an Overground train.

Southern will argue that overcrowding on the line (too many trains operating) means that they have to cut their rush hour trains. But there's no truth in this claim - I've checked this with Network Rail and the various train regulators.

You have to note that Southern would not be able to re-write the timetable without Network Rail's, ORR and the DfT's, i.e. the Government's approval. This whole franchise is similar to London Overground - TfL contracts it out and pays DB/MTR for the operation. In GTR/Southern's case, its the DfT which contracts it to Govia and pays them to operate. It should of been a very good way to do things, leading by TfL's example, however, Network Rails screw ups and guard issues have made it a nightmare. The DfT have already changed the reliability targets and its the DfT pushing Driver Only Operation. Note in Scotland where the DfT have no power, a solution was found and DOO has basically been dropped. In no way am I backing Southern; their behaviour towards their staff and constant misleading information to passengers (like claiming unions were stopping new trains from entering service by suggesting they could only be operated without a guard) has been disgraceful but, the government is to blame for a lot of this.

[michael]

Forest Hill Society have compiled a guide to help you complete the nine key questions in the consultation document:

http://www.foresthillsociety.com/2016/1 ... to_49.html

Our key concerns are:
a) Diverting all our East Croydon services to West Croydon - making it take longer to get to Gatwick and other destinations in Sussex.
b) Reducing our peak services to London Bridge to four trains an hour (the same capacity as the rest of the day). These services would be replaced by five carriage Overground trains to Dalston Junction.

[MagmaTimes]

There are three direct services from London Bridge to Sydenham between 6 and 7 pm. 18.21, 18.36 and 18.53.

This is pretty good, in my opinion - especially considering there are three direct services from London Bridge to Lower Sydenham per hour too.

[Sydenham Syd]

There are three direct services from London Bridge to Sydenham between 6 and 7 pm. 18.21, 18.36 and 18.53.

This is pretty good, in my opinion - especially considering there are three direct services from London Bridge to Lower Sydenham per hour too.

But how about the morning decisions being made? I agree with your statement above, I think that does seem like a good service, but in the morning they need to remain the same, in fact I would judge that:
7.29, 7.36, 7.49 and 7.56 is only just adequate. By the time the '36 has gone there is a substantial platform build up.

[MagmaTimes]

Dunno man - I think that's alright. I always get a seat on the Southern train to London Bridge at Sydenham in the morning. I tend to get either the 7.56 of the 8.42 depending on what shift I'm on each morning - both pretty empty right at the front of the train. Needless to say, by the time we're at Honor Oak Park the carriages are jammed solid.

[Sydenham Syd]

Then it's not alright if you're from Honor Oak....the 7.56 originates at Crystal Palace, and therefore there is bound to be a seat. If you are just talking about Sydenham then I agree it is fine as it stands, but if they cut one or two then it won't.

[butters]

I used to go from Penge East to St Pancras and I had to stop, because it was SO overcrowded that it made the journey unbearable, in addition to the trains frequently being cancelled/late. I switched to Sydenham to London Bridge and the mornings are significantly more enjoyable, however the evening services are becoming increasingly more crowded to standing room only.

I do not see how they can justify pushing more people onto the overground - for a start Canada Water is horrendous to change at, not to mention there is clearly a need for people to come in via London bridge, not to mention the fact the Jubilee line isn't really great for getting into central London.

[MagmaTimes]

Then it's not alright if you're from Honor Oak....the 7.56 originates at Crystal Palace, and therefore there is bound to be a seat. If you are just talking about Sydenham then I agree it is fine as it stands, but if they cut one or two then it won't.

Oh, I agree. If you're trying to get on a train at rush hour from Honor Oak Park or any further north then you're f**ked!

That said, I am just talking about Sydenham - this being the Sydenham town forum.

[The Clown]

I successfully completed the survey:
https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/survey-t ... WQUw_3D_3D

Thanks Michael - would have given up without the summary notes provided to help speed me through.....

Noted that you can whizz through if you just skip all of the other sections

Q No.
14 Please mention late night services on Friday and Saturday in the comments section of this question.
17 We recommend you select Yes This supports services through Crofton Park
29 We recommend you support this This supports services through Crofton Park
30 We recommend you support this This supports services through Crofton Park
58 We recommend you select No These services would replace Forest Hill services to East Croydon
59 We recommend you select No This makes more services fast on our line rather than stopping at Forest Hill
60 We recommend you select No Unnecessary duplication of London Overground services to West Croydon.
Enforced interchange at Norwood Junction, a station that has no step free access for interchange (on the way to Gatwick Airport).
61 We recommend you select No These services world replaces Forest Hill services to East Croydon
67 We recommend you support SN3.1and reject SN3.8. We also recommend you reject the reduction in peak hour services to London Bridge

[Pat Trembath]

BUMPING THIS UP

Time is running out to ask Southern to keep running our trains to East Croydon rather than diverting them all to West Croydon. Please complete the survey by the 8 December deadline – this Thursday.

The consultation document is at https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/2018ti ... nsultation. It can be completed anonymously (giving your name and address is optional).

It is extremely long, as Southern refused the Sydenham Society’s request for a survey which only covered our route. However, you can just skim rapidly through.

Questions 59 and 60 ask:

"Would you prefer a faster, non-stopping service between Caterham and London Bridge instead of a stopping service via Sydenham?",

and

"Do you support the diversion of stopping trains between New Cross Gate and Norwood Junction from East Croydon to West Croydon instead?"

In the Sydenham Society's view the answer to both questions should be NO, as the Overground already goes to West Croydon, and East Croydon offers far more possibilities for onward travel.

Accessing East Croydon by changing at Norwood Junction takes time, and means lots of stairs to reach other platforms. The loss of Caterham trains will reduce our service locally and be detrimental to all rail users along our line.

You may also want to comment on question 17, about the increase in frequency of Thameslink services on the Catford Loop line, as this is at the cost of the proposed loss of our convenient Thameslink service from Penge East via Herne Hill to St Pancras.

Also question 19 which asks if we would still like Southern to run the Caterham and Tattenham Corner service?