Celebrating Brexit.

[Eagle]

Rustya

I except I know nothing and bow to your supreme knowledge being a qualified banker.

It would have been more helpful if you had given more info of your examples.

You seem to be discounting the 48% plus the 28% as not important and whose views do not matter . So be it.

[rustya]

Rustya

I except I know nothing and bow to your supreme knowledge being a qualified banker.

It would have been more helpful if you had given more info of your examples.

You seem to be discounting the 48% plus the 28% as not important and whose views do not matter . So be it.

I believe you meant "accept" rather than except.
What 28% are you referring to Eagle? - the 17m who chose not to vote after numerous media wide campaigns and also afforded the unprecedented step of time window extension to register - another attempt by the establishment to preserve the status quo.
Please advise.

[Eagle]

I would have thought it was excepted that in a referendum those who did not vote broadly agreed with Status Quo.

You have more faith in the economic and geopolital knowledge of the average Briton than I have . ,Many know more about the kardashians ( who ever they may be ) than other EU members.

Good evening to you.

[marymck]

Rustya

I except I know nothing and bow to your supreme knowledge being a qualified banker.

It would have been more helpful if you had given more info of your examples.

You seem to be discounting the 48% plus the 28% as not important and whose views do not matter . So be it.

Do you mean the 28% who didn't bother to vote? Well, no one knows how they would have voted if they had cared enough to get off their backsides and make the effort. So, no we can't count their votes, one way or the other. 72% did make the effort. Much better than at the general election. So a larger proportion of the nation was considered "not important" at our last few general elections, and yet we have a supposedly "democratically elected" government. By your reasoning the general election should be re run and re run until all possible votes are cast and counted.

[mosy]

No, Remain supporters are not "bad losers" - we just believe in UK being in the EU and (as a result) the UK remaining as one country and not splintering up.

Would you have said that the Suffragettes were "bad losers" too, when their proposals were voted down by parliament?*

No, of course not - they believed in it and continued to campaign until the vote was granted to women.

And we shall do the same.

Tim Farron - Lib Dem leader has vowed to take the UK back into the EU if we leave.

*remember there were no referendums back then. Parliament voting the idea down is the equivalent of a referendum then.

I accept that the referendum is deemed advisory in the legal sense so could be ignored.

However David Cameron stated several times (and seemingly to EU leaders too) that it was a once-only vote, either In or Out, and that he was speaking on behalf of his government that the result would be honoured.

I'm prepared to acknowledge that all politicians fib much of the time generally - it's what they all do - but honouring the vote is a specific commitment given several times by our country's PM.

Ironically perhaps, the commitment by DC was in part a consequence of what Boris Johnson was implying, even saying, initially - that if people voted to leave, the UK could renegotiate terms so all would be well in a (proverbial) reformed EU. DC ruled that out absolutely straight away and subsequently repeated "It's a once-only vote" throughout the campaign. He most certainly did not suggest that the referendum was advisory only. What would have been the point of a referendum? No-one at all would have even bothered to vote if they expected parliament to ignore the result and do what they liked anyway.

To be fair to the government (for the moment at least), both Theresa May and Brexit Tory leadership contenders are saying they'll stand by the vote.

I'm not really interested in Tim Farron's contradictory statements, or what Tony Blair says for that matter. They're irrelevant, as is the Labour party for the moment.

[Robin Orton]

You can't have referendum after referendum until you browbeat the electorate into submission or despair and get the result the establishment wants ...I hope that no amount of anti democracy rallies by a few thousand will overturn the choice of millions. Parliament really will be crossing the pale if it does treat the British electorate with the contempt which some of the protesters do.

But if someone makes a foolish decision which they later regret, isn't it rather cruel to say, 'You've made your bed, now you must lie on it'?

[marymck]

You can't have referendum after referendum until you browbeat the electorate into submission or despair and get the result the establishment wants ...I hope that no amount of anti democracy rallies by a few thousand will overturn the choice of millions. Parliament really will be crossing the pale if it does treat the British electorate with the contempt which some of the protesters do.

But if someone makes a foolish decision which they later regret, isn't it rather cruel to say, 'You've made your bed, now you must lie on it'?

I thought that when Thatcher was re-elected. But hey, it was democracy, like it or not. And in the case of the referendum, I very definitely like it and know it's the right decision.

[rustya]

You can't have referendum after referendum until you browbeat the electorate into submission or despair and get the result the establishment wants ...I hope that no amount of anti democracy rallies by a few thousand will overturn the choice of millions. Parliament really will be crossing the pale if it does treat the British electorate with the contempt which some of the protesters do.

But if someone makes a foolish decision which they later regret, isn't it rather cruel to say, 'You've made your bed, now you must lie on it'?

Penalty shootouts like referendums are clinical.
Lots of debate about their moralities, but really what alternatives are there to obtain a clean decision with zero ambiguity?
My case rests.

[Pally]

No Alburt

The fiasco of Brexit was not democracy. The claims of the exiters are even being denied and ridiculed by themselves.

Of course one should be able to sit back and take stock. The bare minimum for such a major decision should be a second referendum.

No Eagle. Alburt is right. You can't have referendum after referendum until you browbeat the electorate into submission or despair and get the result the establishment wants.

There were claims on both sides that couldn't be proved. There were no "facts" about future economics. It was all guesswork. The establishment believed that voters could be swayed by as little as a £25 difference in annual income pp The establishment then went completely OTT and predicted a >£4K fall in annual income pp. They were wrong on one and wildly guessing on the other. This is a chancellor who has a record of not even being able to accurately predict six months ahead.

I hope that no amount of anti democracy rallies by a few thousand will overturn the choice of millions. Parliament really will be crossing the pale if it does treat the British electorate with the contempt which some of the protesters do.

Yes Albert is right. The fact that politicians and their cronies on both sides were making it up as they went along, making OTT statements and treating the electorate like idiots does not negate the fact that the Remain side lost ...more fool them and for that matter more fool politicians for calling the referendum in the first place just playing stupid political games with very serious stuff.

But now ....we really do need everyone to get on with looking at how we move forward most effectively for the UK!! Instead they are all busy slagging each other off ....although apparently George Osbourne has it all in hand financially, busy man that he is !!!!

[Robin Orton]

Penalty shootouts like referendums are clinical.
Lots of debate about their moralities, but really what alternatives are there to obtain a clean decision with zero ambiguity?

Who says referendums are analogous to penalty shoot-outs?

'A clean decision with zero ambiguity'. Hardly, given that the Leave campaign had no clear or agreed proposals as to what our relationship should be with the EU post-Brexit. Like Norway's? Like Switzerland's? Like Albania's? Like Canada's? Part of the single European market or not? Which of these did the Leave voters think they were voting for, I wonder?

[Nigel]

The leave voters were voting to leave Europe - isn't that clear enough .

When people voted for Corbyn they didnt have to say whether they were voting for closer links to Hamas , or 70s style leftwing dogma or a lifetime in opposition.
Why is it that only the " wrong " result has to be justified ?

These reactions to an entirely expected and legitimate vote have really opened my eyes to just how domineering the middle class in this country is - surely the less is start listening and not tick people off for having different views - wrong type of diversity ?

A very good morning
Nigel

[Robin Orton]

The leave voters were voting to leave Europe - isn't that clear enough .When people voted for Corbyn they didnt have to say whether they were voting for closer links to Hamas , or 70s style leftwing dogma or a lifetime in opposition.

How can we 'leave Europe'?

And voting for one person or one party rather than another is a simple binary choice. Voting between two propositions is more difficult.

'Nigel is my hero.'

'Nigel is a silly old fool'

Tick the appropriate box.

[stuart]

The leave voters were voting to leave Europe - isn't that clear enough .

When people voted for Corbyn they didnt have to say whether they were voting for closer links to Hamas , or 70s style leftwing dogma or a lifetime in opposition.
Why is it that only the " wrong " result has to be justified ?

Quite right my fellow cove.

Corbyn was elected not so much for who he is but for the failure of the alternatives to develop a coherent and attractive manifesto and have the character to deliver it. But if JC fails to attract people outside the Labour Party with cohent and popular policies then we know what will happen.

1) He gets dumped by the party in advance of an election or ..
2) He is rejected by the country at an election

In other words we get to vote on failure and correct it. That was MikeJ's point.

If you are confident that all will be well - what's to worry about voting on the exit treaty which would be a reality rather than politician's recent incoherent promises? (that's a dig at both sets).

Mary - if you don't like nastiness could you not try and be a little more conciliatory to those who wish to remain in the EU? After all we are the overwhelming majority here in Sydenham, Lewisham and London. We need to repair a fractured nation before it becomes even more fractured. You may be OK but some of us are already suffering the economic backlash, job insecurity and whose friends and family are being held hostage by certain contenders for the right to negotiate exit. Its really hurting. Its some people's inability to see the consequences of their actions which will be the loss to us all.

And Rustya - bringing in your special expertise as a banker is, perhaps, unhelpful. A profession that brought this country to its knees and from which we may never recover. Unless of course you mean don't believe a banker as you don't appear to be in agreement with most leading bankers here and overseas.

Stuart

[marymck]

...

Mary - if you don't like nastiness could you not try and be a little more conciliatory to those who wish to remain in the EU? After all we are the overwhelming majority here in Sydenham, Lewisham and London. We need to repair a fractured nation before it becomes even more fractured. You may be OK but some of us are already suffering the economic backlash, job insecurity and whose friends and family are being held hostage by certain contenders for the right to negotiate exit. Its really hurting. Its some people's inability to see the consequences of their actions which will be the loss to us all.

And Rustya - bringing in your special expertise as a banker is, perhaps, unhelpful. A profession that brought this country to its knees and from which we may never recover. Unless of course you mean don't believe a banker as you don't appear to be in agreement with most leading bankers here and overseas.

Stuart

Sorry Stuart, but I see myself as a citizen of the UK first and foremost, and then a resident of Sydenham. Do we even know if the "overwhelmingly majority" in Sydenham voted Remain? I didn't think the figures were broken down in such.minute detail. It will be interesting if you could please supply a link to the breakdown. I know quite a lot of Sydenham residents who voted leave. But maybe that's just because I live in a different area, or go to different pubs, than you.

However, I'd be interested to hear how you believe I can be any more conciliatory than I have been, whilst not giving in to bullies. I only started posting because I was sick and tired of divisive comments all over the internet and other media and if abusive remarks about the age and stupidity of those which voted leave. I have begged and I beg again, please let us move on.

Yes, of course I'm sorry if others will be financially affected by the decision to leave. I certainly will be. But it's not all about my bank balance or yours. I happen to think my taking a financial hit in the immediate future will be better for the country in the long run.

[Sydenham Syd]

The leave voters were voting to leave Europe - isn't that clear enough .

When people voted for Corbyn they didnt have to say whether they were voting for closer links to Hamas , or 70s style leftwing dogma or a lifetime in opposition.
Why is it that only the " wrong " result has to be justified ?

Quite right my fellow cove.

Corbyn was elected not so much for who he is but for the failure of the alternatives to develop a coherent and attractive manifesto and have the character to deliver it. But if JC fails to attract people outside the Labour Party with cohent and popular policies then we know what will happen.

1) He gets dumped by the party in advance of an election or ..
2) He is rejected by the country at an election

In other words we get to vote on failure and correct it. That was MikeJ's point.

If you are confident that all will be well - what's to worry about voting on the exit treaty which would be a reality rather than politician's recent incoherent promises? (that's a dig at both sets).

Mary - if you don't like nastiness could you not try and be a little more conciliatory to those who wish to remain in the EU? After all we are the overwhelming majority here in Sydenham, Lewisham and London. We need to repair a fractured nation before it becomes even more fractured. You may be OK but some of us are already suffering the economic backlash, job insecurity and whose friends and family are being held hostage by certain contenders for the right to negotiate exit. Its really hurting. Its some people's inability to see the consequences of their actions which will be the loss to us all.

And Rustya - bringing in your special expertise as a banker is, perhaps, unhelpful. A profession that brought this country to its knees and from which we may never recover. Unless of course you mean don't believe a banker as you don't appear to be in agreement with most leading bankers here and overseas.

Stuart

I would also like to ask what Rustya's banking qualifications offer? Where is it from? Also, given your pedantry earlier, economist with a l/c 'e' please.

Sterling still getting nailed by the dollar.

Apparently all is well.

Who's going to resign today?

[Eagle]

Let us hope we can keep this on a polite level.

Those who voted for Brexit were in most cases voting anti establishment and to put it mildly were confused.
True there is a racist element but not suggesting any of the posters on this Forum are in that mold .

We have all been through the arguments time and time again but each side does not want to listen to the other.

The most stupid claim is we have voted Brexit and none of bad things promised have happened.

Of course not nothing has changed. We are still full members of the EU , and even on worst scenario will continue to be so for some time.
The worst scenario's mentioned by Remain are for after Split .

We have now the situation whereby HMG will got guarantee current EU immigrants the right to stay after Brexit. Apparently this is because they want a guarantee about Britons living in EU.

Here we hit on major problem. Most EU migrants are between 18 and 40 , and age they put much less burdens on NHS etc.
A good proportion of Britons living in EU are OAP's who when they come back will be a huge drain on NHS and other services.

Oh one wonders if the Secessionists have any idea what hornets nest they have opened

[Sydenham Syd]

https://next.ft.com/content/0d8fa051-d9 ... ad675e7fbc

Liquidity issues in one of the biggest property funds too.

But all is well apparently.

[stuart]

Yes, of course I'm sorry if others will be financially affected by the decision to leave. I certainly will be. But it's not all about my bank balance or yours. I happen to think my taking a financial hit in the immediate future will be better for the country in the long run.

True its not our bank balances - that would be acting purely selfishly. But the country's bank balances DOES MATTER. Even many Brexiters accept there is going to be a substantial hit. Promising an extra £350m/week to the NHS, promising EU grants will be matched by HMG, ignoring the real administrative costs of leaving the EU on an economy with tax receipts declining and benefits increasing is real la-la land. In the real world we won't be able to afford what we would have on education, health, environment, the arts ... which will make us poorer in so many other ways.

Not to mention how families, clubs and other groups thrive and expand their horizons with the inclusion of members from across Europe.

It doesn't take too many discussions with people who voted leave to spot reasons that can never be satisfied. Some, no doubt will plough on regardless because dreams take precedence over reality. Some may change their minds when we get a better glimpse of what leaving really means.

Maybe some will switch the other way. But if the opinion polls indicate a strong surge then should it not be tested on a referendum on the exit terms? Shouldn't we have a referendum anyway just to settle what would reamain a festering sore by one side or the other?

Re my Sydenham remark. We have definitive figures for Lewisham and the surrounding boroughs. If you look into the voting patterns of them as a group in this and other elections then the demographics point to a similar strong poll in SE26. But if you think anecdotes discount that then feel welcome.

And it is an ageist thing. As less than a spring chicken myself I am horrified it is people of my generation with closed minds because many of them live in closed communities who live and want to revive the past. The young, particulary in London, live, work and play in a more diverse world than you or I. Its their future we are deciding on. I feel ashamed of how we failed them.

Stuart

[Eagle]

Stuart

Also as an OAP who voted Remain , I am horrified that the biggest outists were my generation.

People who have not got long to go but have chosen to stab the younger people in the back.

[Manwithaview1]

And there we go, round in a circle once again. We who voted out are accused of being insane, or stupid, or ill informed. All because we disagree with those who want to keep their comfy sinecures aboard the unaccountable gravy train that is the EU. Sigh.

The EU is accountable though. People are replaced/sacked/voted out etc. Where do you get your information from?