Celebrating Brexit.

[Sydenham Syd]

I don't think you have been blamed personally, although I admit it did get a little bit one on one, and for that I apologise. My frustration got the better of me.

I agree however, that those who did vote to leave are currently facing some tough questions. I believe that the majority of those who voted for secession did so via emotion. That's all well and good if it's the 3.30 at Haydock, but this deserves to be justified by asking why retrospectively that path was chosen, and there is still zero clarity on that rationale.

The pound and the ftse did move today and I watched a pretty rowdy dealing room get quite excited when the numbers from the states came out. It mainly came from some plundering of damaged goods, notably house stocks and an bit of oil rebound. It's still volatility, whichever way you dress it, and that's not good.

The true nature of this story is still ahead and ball breakingly dull task of trying to reinvent so many things and explain to the rest of the world that we actually aren't an inward looking bunch of people but are actually charming. I think that has escaped us for a while

[stuart]

And so it goes on - a gentle dig that liberals are getting nasty is met with liberals getting nasty.l

Am i one of your 'liberals'? Have I been nasty to you? Angry yes, but I hope politely so. Show me otherwise and my apology is assured.

Stuart

[mosy]

Unfortunately I just don't see the EU through the rose tinted specs that some Remainers do, either now or for the future. Although Cameron said that free movement was the main reason for Brexit, it is rather simplistic since free movement is but a symptom of the fundamental reality of not being in charge of ourselves. Although DC has said that further power cannot be transferred to the EU unchallenged, it has been and will continue to be in dribs and drabs regardless.

As to future trade (UK / EU / global international) arguments, my view is that businesses need to be able to trade in any country without being hampered by obligatory EU agreements even when the EU is irrelevant.

The EU market seems to have little prospects for expanding UK business income as evidenced by the fact that our imports very much higher than our exports. We must be free to trade in and with the growing ones elsewhere in the world or we'll simply miss out and be left behind, which is bonkers when we could be leaders in some, e.g. tech.

Osborne's policies are hopeless if looking to expand in new industries, which is no doubt a result of his focus on financial services. Hopefully a Brexit chancellor will review the UK's future with a broader perspective.

I am sorry if people are already actually being affected by Brexit. No doubt employers have their reasons for acting so quickly, if they have. It's inevitable that uncertainly will be a cloud hanging over heads. I and millions of others were adversely affected during Thatcher's years of slicing and dicing and we just had to pick ourselves up after redundancies and small business closures, often more than once. We've known with absolute certainty that jobs for life stopped from that point forwards so one must always be looking for new opportunities. Even more so for a nation (UK) as a whole.

Anyone is welcome to disagree with me of course, but hopefully explaining why rather than just telling me I'm wrong or insane

[mosy]

It's now 25hrs since I wrote my last post and 368 extra views since (as of time of writing this).

"No answer came the stern reply" about benefits of Remaining (other than slogans less persuasive once examined in detail) is the reason I sat on the fence until the 11th hour before deciding Leave.

Hey ho. Water under the bridge now.

[stuart]

It's now 25hrs since I wrote my last post and 368 extra views since (as of time of writing this).

"No answer came the stern reply" about benefits of Remaining (other than slogans less persuasive once examined in detail) is the reason I sat on the fence until the 11th hour before deciding Leave.

I'm sorry Mosy but your question doesn't make sense. The benefits of staying was what we already had. There were the disbenefits of leaving which I and others well rehearsed earlier in this thread and others. Plus the benefits of leaving which others sort to promote.

As you say water under the bridge. Now we have, apparently, gone Brexit the disbenefits are rapidly morphing from forecast to reality for those who have eyes to see though the usual suspects are in denial. The promised benefits of Brexit are apparently evaporating with the careers of their main proponents. If these realities do not convince you that you may have made the wrong decision then, I guess, nothing I or others can say will do.

If you were to regret your choice - can I ask what you would like to be done about it?

Also did you get the SydenhamArts mailing about the probable evaporation of their EU based funding and would we kindly fill the financial gap? Perhaps a reminder that we haven't appreciated the day to day benefits of being in the EU as, unlike other countries we don't put up plaques to say 'this project was financed by the EU Development Fund' or whatever.

Believe Boris if you will that the funding gaps can be more than filled directly from HMG. And if, as predicted, the economy dips, benefits rise and tax receipts drop and we didn't increase NHS spending by £350 million a week we never had - will this even be an option?

The ball is in your (and the other 52%)'s court.

Stuart

[Eagle]

Stuart surely and funds from EU to support British events should not cease until and IF we actually leave.

I assume we will pay all membership costs until and if that day comes.

I think Syd Arts are being a trifle premature.

You do , however sum up , the situation on the horrific Brexit very well. Boris stabbed in the back. Oh dear did he not do the same to his PM.

[stuart]

Stuart surely and funds from EU to support British events should not cease until and IF we actually leave

Dunno Eagle. I'm still waiting for someone to wake me up with a smile and breakfast saying its Friday 24th and was I having a bit of a nightmare?

I really haven't seen in my lifetime so many politicians out of their depth and turning to self-immolation of their parties while the British economy burns. OK its only smouldering right now but we should be thinking of how we dampen things down and get companies here planning to grow and stay and overseas organisations wanting to invest and the cream of Europe wanting to come here to be part of and contribute to our success. Remember economies are like supertankers. There is a lot of inertia. The slowdown will take time to bite. Reversing it is an even bigger job and no one appears to have a clue how.

Theresa, I'm not a fan but I have to say good luck - it looks like you will the most challenging peacetime PM job of all time. A hell of a lot is riding on you and your decisions.

Stuart

[Eagle]

Stuart

I like you keep hoping it is a nasty dream.

Oh how great it would have been if Libs not quashed last election

I think the Libs could see a new dawn as sensible hitherto Tories defect.

[Tim Lund]

Our next Prime Minister?

[Parker1970]

Our next Prime Minister?

I'll simply be grateful it's not Boris and hopefully not the gay hating Stephen Crabb. Not to keen on Hunt either considering the Junior Doctor controversy and his associations with certain press bosses.

[_HB]

Ah yes. Theresa May, the "sensible" choice. Theresa May who, if I'm not mistaken, commissioned a fleet of vans to drive around the country telling immigrants to "Go Home".

[Eagle]

HB

She is the best bet but some of the others are nearly as bad as JC.

Hopefully she may drag us back to sanity.

[mosy]

Can I refer to my earlier post and stuart's reply. I was trying to say that now Brexit had happened, didn't anyone agree with me that the UK has enough skills, business acumen and competitive drive to thrive in the wider world in the longer term.

My comment about Remain benefits not being spelled out well before the vote was another way of saying that the Remain vote might have been higher with a different campaign.

stuart says "The benefits of staying was what we already had." I would say that is a very good example. Nothing about the future. I see more of the same as a negative selling point not a positive one for the future. Clearly we now all have to agree to differ, but the ball is firmly in all our courts now to make Brexit work whether we like it or not.

I don't regret my vote. If we really prove ourselves to be incapable of thriving outside the EU in the longer term, then arguably the alternative outcome of staying in implies we'd have become more insignificant and possibly even gone under along with a ship whose captains in some respects seem to be trying to drill a hole in its hull.

I was trying to see why many on here, even though it's happened, still can't or don't see any future benefits from leaving, only disbenefits.

Hey ho.

[Eagle]

Mosy

Brexit has not YET happened.


There has been a consultancy referendum . Parliament has not instituted any proceedures to secede .

Maybe something will happen

One can only dream.

[chrisj1948]

I guess I am an early casualty of Brexit. An Italian firm, with which I did a significant proportion of my business, has decided on an immediate withdrawal from the UK effective from mid-July, and have closed down the e-commerce hub which I supported.

Regards
Chris

[parker]

Ah yes. Theresa May, the "sensible" choice. Theresa May who, if I'm not mistaken, commissioned a fleet of vans to drive around the country telling immigrants to "Go Home".

...and why exactly was that a bad thing?

[stuart]

Can I refer to my earlier post and stuart's reply. I was trying to say that now Brexit had happened, didn't anyone agree with me that the UK has enough skills, business acumen and competitive drive to thrive in the wider world in the longer term.

Survive maybe. But not to thrive as much as we would with a more welcoming policy.

Last Tuesday I went to a Jazz concert. The leader was visibly very upset with the result. His musicians come from various EU countries. They play in London one night and Berlin the next. Quite freely. Very different from New York with visas, work permits, tax issues etc. Not that the EU benefits aren't going to end overnight but right now no one knows what will happen when. And when folks start giving immigration points to saxophone players I think I would rather trust a band leader than a civil servant and certainly not Nigel Farage.

Do we really want English only bands playing only in England? I remember the 1950s and early 60s and that was stultifying. In the 60s big name musicians could break through the barriers to more easily perform elsewhere. But people of different nationalities coming together and working together produces a much richer result.

Jazz is but an example. But in academia don't we want the good people no matter their nationality? And for our people to freely be able to widen their experience oversea and especially to students - the Erasmus programme.

I take your point about the EU not being the world. But it is much more than an insular England. Make no mistake rather too many of the 52% aren't interested in the world. The people I spoke with in Cornwall would keep Devonians out if they could. The implicit racism was breathtaking - which was ironic as people of a different colour or culture were either non-existent or keeping a very low profile in that county.

NB I'm not accusing voting Leave as necessarily racist. But it has helped embolden and legitimise true racists. That is something you need to think about. The demons unleashed. Getting them back in the bottle is not easy.

NB2 The Remain campaign was pathetic. But it is also ironic that JC is being blamed when the only action (posters, leafleting and lobbying) appeared to come from Labour. Yes they could have done more and saved DC's hide yet again but they didn't get us into this mess and DC dumping on JC just shows how pathetic DC really is.

NB3. No I don't accept Brexit. I am a democrat. Let negotiations commence but people need to be able to vote on whether to accept the real terms not promises that those that made them are already withdrawing. Remember Brexiters were vociferous that any material change treaty must be voted on. That's all I ask. If they then vote to ratify it - fine. That's it. If they don't well we should be able to ask if we can withdraw our notice to quit. The EU may not accept that of course. Currently Theresa says no too. Whether that's to get Brexiters to vote for her I don't know. I just hope she is more atuned to public opinion as it develops over the next two years rather than a prisoner of backbench egos.

Stuart

[mosy]

...[clip]...
NB3. No I don't accept Brexit. I am a democrat. Let negotiations commence but people need to be able to vote on whether to accept the real terms not promises that those that made them are already withdrawing. Remember Brexiters were vociferous that any material change treaty must be voted on. That's all I ask. If they then vote to ratify it - fine. That's it. If they don't well we should be able to ask if we can withdraw our notice to quit. The EU may not accept that of course. ...[clip]...
Stuart

I don't understand the logistics of a new referendum ratifying a potential plan. I'll try to explain why I think it's Catch 22.

If the EU refuse to negotiate before Article 50, so we invoke it, then technically we've left from that moment and they would say (with great glee) "no backsies", i.e. that we'd then have to apply to rejoin on the same basis as everyone else as "special arrangements" have already been nullified. They might not, but why wouldn't they if we went crawling back and they're holding all the cards?

Going crawling back would also display to the world that the UK has rejected the majority vote to leave, and as I've said somewhere else, which country would want to deal with another who's just reneged on its democratic word, which even foreign leaders accept is deemed sacrosanct in the UK?

Also, and here I'm assuming a multi-party exit panel, the act of putting a proposed agreed plan back to the people (after Article 50) would surely make democracy and MPs a laughing stock by admitting that they were still incapable of knowing the public's will despite purporting to represent them. OK, they got it wrong once, but surely they can learn from that mistake at home before invoking Article 50.

Having the courage of one's convictions is why DC failed in part to win Remain. Persuading people "Let's be happy with what we've got" was never going to work when the polls were 50/50 from the outset and even before the referendum 50% were fed up of eating gruel and told to be thankful for it.

Same applies to racism and splits in Tory and Labour parties. You can't pretend a growing undercurrent doesn't exist by ignoring it. The referendum caused all to rise to the surface, but I didn't call it and think some problems should have been sorted at home first. Not everything is the EU's fault, which it is perfectly reasonable for them to tell us.

I agree that not just the EU but all internationalism causes us to be richer in the real (rather than financial) sense. The negotiating panel of MPs aren't the people we hope they are if they don't recognise that in whatever deal is drawn up.

As a footnote, I can't answer to why other people voted to Leave except that they have their own self interests, the same as Remain voters do. My vote is for a future that suits us as a nation. Being under the control of others is anathema and I don't think ever will suit us.

It might suit people wanting to work, travel and live abroad but by definition that says they're less involved in what happens back home. That also goes to an implicit denial by Remainers of reciprocity about free movement when even they must know that there has to be some form of curtailment on inward immigration (EU says No), as well as accepting the unacceptable that big business sees immigrants as cheap labour which is wrong on many levels.

Hey ho.

[Nigel]

Stuart
I think your examples of european musicians and scientific minds are red herrings but also examples of what is at the heart of the Brexit / remain divide . Of course musicians will have access to this country , of course scientific expertise will be sourced from wherever its needed - as it is now - from the entire planet .

The pertinent question , leaving aside your concerns about the most educated , able and advantaged , is what possible advantage do ordinary people get from it - for every graduate bemoaning the fact they may be less able to ponce around in Padua , there are a 100 low paid people seeing absolutely no benefit in being in Europe and their low paid work made even less well paid . I see those as undeniable , and leaving aside the rather nasty " too stupid to vote " backlash from the educated middle class (and I am not accusing you, to be clear ) are self-evident reasons why more people want out than in .
Monbiot made some good points about remainers believing they need to elect a new electorate , and Steve Sailer from TakiMag , makes the point even clearer :

The near universal response of the punditry to a majority of Brits voting to leave the E.U. has been so enraged that the average voter must have begun by now to notice that their furious elites just plain don’t like them. As a Bizarro World Sally Field might have exclaimed in wonder, “You hate us, you really hate us!”

The past week has been the mirror image of the Stale Pale Male taunting and touchdown dances that followed Obama’s reelection. Then, it was Democracy Rules (because we’ve imported millions of ringers). Now, it’s Democracy Sucks (because voters are stupid).

I’ve long been suggesting that it would be prudent for elites to moderate the policies under which they’ve flourished, such as by scaling back mass immigration. Open borders might make sense to individuals who see themselves as Randian supermen who could dominate anywhere. But the more humble or realistic might prefer a place to call home—“Home is where you don’t have to explain yourself.”

The Establishment’s refusal to moderate its policies—for example, “Britain today receives more immigrants in a single year than it did in the entire period from 1066 to 1950,” as Benjamin Schwarz recently observed—inevitably leads citizens to seize upon the few opportunities they are afforded to offer their opinion, such as the Brexit referendum.

“Is it any surprise that British voters chose to exit in 2016?”
What has ruined the E.U. is the ideological momentum of elites. Now that the public has twigged to the fact that globalism is basically a scam to allow those who would do pretty well in life anyway to do even better, the globalists have doubled down on their claims to be justified by their more advanced morality of universalism.

I don't mean to be snippy at you , decent cove that you are , but even at this late stage it feels like the desire to get the "right" outcome from brexit version 2 , is more important to some , than understanding why huge swathes of the British public fear the free movement of people - and will do so , until they find themselves able to nip to e.g. Spain work in say road building , earn 5 times what they can earn at home, still get free healthcare and housing - that is to say never ,ever .

A very good evening
nigel

[alburt.c]

Wow democrasy making big war here.

democrat vote been made so we hav result. good for some peeples. not so good for other peeples.

we must move on with new PM so new UK. must now hav hope for future.