Celebrating Brexit.

[Robin Orton]

Difficult to move on until one's worked through the grieving process.

[Tim Lund]

I'm surprised this wasn't started in the Pub, but I guess it was felt sufficiently important.

For my part, I'm resolved in all areas of discussion, from now on, to say what I think as clearly as possible, much as I will miss the use of irony, and avoid offending people.

In previous posts I've recommended this book:

The Righteous Mind: Why Good People are divided by politics and religion

It really is worth reading

[maestro]

Difficult to move on until one's worked through the grieving process.

It was the kindest thing for some of us to drag it down an alleyway and put it out of it's misery. You'll thank us for it some day.

(no flowers please)

[Sydenham Syd]

I think you are as guilty as anyone of being ageist...your knuckles were also being rapped.
Well done for admitting the blunder in the first place - it was actually the right decision then, and the wrong decision now - you must have had a traumatic few decades.

I was responding to your suggestion about taking away the right of older people to vote. Had I chosen to be as ageist as you, I might have said that we should remove the voting rights of under 21 year olds, as they lacked the life experience and empathy to make a rational decision. But I am not ageist. I didn't suggest such any such thing, nor would I. I have been very careful not to be ageist in my posts and I am not ageist in my beliefs. There are some stupid and some self centred people across all age groups; some intelligent and altruistic people voted out and some intelligent and altruistic people voted in. We don't all have to march to the same drum.

Your comments about what you see as a blunder are muddled. Yes, with hindsight it was a blunder to join the EEC. And you have no knowledge of my life or of any trauma I may have suffered, so I'll thank you not to make personal jibes.

Is this all being moved to the pub now? Or are going to do what the country should and move on?[/quote]

I did say 'must' rather than did.
I still can't believe there is some denial about the demographics of who voted remain and who voted leave. It's pretty clear.

Results:

The pen pushing will move to the UK, and in the process we will wipe off a chunk of global equity.
Instability for the foreseeable future.
We will become alienated and disliked in the top global clubs.
The UK will be seen as a place not to come to, whether you are an economic or political migrant.
We will be viewed (rightly or wrongly) as a nation of inward looking bigots.

Apart from all of that it looks like a really solid decision.

[marymck]

The problem is, demographics get misinterpreted. For example, having a degree does not equal being more intelligent. A much smaller proportion of the population went on to Higher Education and degree courses in the 1970s than today. That doesn't mean we were thicker. We had Further Education, Polytechnics, formal apprenticeships and - in my case - on the job training. We also did foreign exchange trips with schools on the Continent long before the EEC. (We also had passports. There was travel pre EEC or EU! We were resourceful and got on European trains without mobile phones and credit cards).

Life didn't start with the EU and it won't end without it.

And look at those vast swathes of the country that voted to leave, despite getting EU subsidies. Many of those areas lost their industries under Thatcher, or under successive governments bending to EU rules, and nothing substantial has replaced them. Roads to nowhere, subsidized links with London's modern art galleries (for a population that largely has no interest in London and has never felt the inclination to visit), state of the art swimming pools ... all very nice, but hardly substantial employment, fish on the quayside or export opportunities.

[Sydenham Syd]

But leaving the EU won't bring any of that back.
End of.

All it will do is restrict your access rather than open it further.

Demography does get misinterpreted, much like many of the facts pushed out pre-referendum.

[Eagle]

I am really confused and sad as to how some of the people supporting secession can be so convinced the barmy arguments are correct.

Winston Churchill would not have been so weak to put a referendum as to whither we surrender to Hitler in 1940. I have been staggered and saddened by the weak attitude of DC.

[mosy]

I agree with Robin Orton's comment about a grieving period, then move on. It's impossible in human nature not to rake over the ashes and no doubt some (about 50%) will be saying "I told you so" in a few years whatever happens.

The disruption in leadership of Tory and Labour perhaps confirms, or exposes, the groundswell of unhappiness that's been simmering for years at both political level and in the country and it was bound to come to a head IMO sooner or later, the referendum just prompting "sooner".

I'm amazed how many politicians are now saying "we can take our time" - e.g.Jeremy Hunt this morning saying until 2020 general election. Time is of the essence to remove uncertainty for market, businesses and especially people's jobs/houses/rents/pensions. Whereas, I'm hoping parliament will be recalled from Summer Recess, e.g. to discuss/confirm the, presumably multi party, make-up of the negotiation panel for determining our new arrangements with the EU and of course globally.

[Eagle]

Mosy

I still think possibility sanity will return and either a second vote or Parliament will take control.

Afterall Parliament is meant to be the supreme force in the land.

Many outers are admitting their claims were just plain stupid.

Surely with a vote so close , and 28% not voting , a clarification is required..... If the Brexit dreamers and non resident Scots
are so convinced of their evidence should be happy for second vote.

[marymck]

Well I hope sanity will prevail and there WON'T be another referendum. It really would be madness for the powers that be to ignore the highest voter turnout in years. It is the crosses on the ballot paper that should count ... not the banner wavers and petition signers who reject democracy when it doesn't go in their favour.

There were wild claims on BOTH sides. There were no economic facts. Only guesses on what could happen. I should have thought it was obvious both sides were speculating with their financial predictions. And I can remember a politician from the leave camp speaking on the Today show well before the vote and saying that it would be up to the government how the savings from EU membership would be shared out. He made it utterly clear that they couldn't say how it would be spent, only the items, like the NHS, that they'd be pressing to be given priority.

At the beginning of the campaign there were claims that just a £25 pa per person reduction in income would sway voters in favour of remain. Well Osborne predicted a reduction of more than 4K pa pp and people either saw it was a wild claim or decided some things were more important than their income. So that scare tactic didn't work.

The greatest damage was done by Osborne talking down our economy, because what he said pre vote has influenced the markets post vote. Unless he back pedals furiously and admits he was using scare tactics he should go and go soon.

[Eagle]

I think we could be seeing a complete change in British , or English , voting.

I think unless the Tories are careful the millions of normal Tory voters will switch to Liberal or Labour ( if Jezza goes ).

This is such an important issue that people , like me , who have mostly voted Tory , will not again.

Corn Laws Act 2.

[gurka]

It's the precedent that has been set by both campaigns that has now legitimised this type of hatred:


https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/v ... 069876939/

Probably staged though right?

[Sydenham Syd]

Total filth.

[Eagle]

I agree , unfortunately people such as Farage have opened up a hornets nest with some of their supporters.

Oh Mr Cameron what have you done.

[Robin Orton]

Difficult to move on until one's worked through the grieving process.

It was the kindest thing for some of us to drag it down an alleyway and put it out of it's misery. You'll thank us for it some day.

(no flowers please)

I think you've misunderstood, Maestro. What one is grieving for is not the loss of the EU. It's the loss of an idea of what England was, is and might be. It feels as if that idea has been trampled in the mud by barbarians. (Quite unfair, I recognize, but that's the sort of anger you feel when you're grieving.)

[Sydenham Syd]

http://video.ft.com/5001944494001/Brexi ... Wolf/World

Even the Wolf, the slayer of the central banks, suggests the leave campaign are 'insane'

[Eagle]

We know they are insane , tell us something new.

How do we get out of this debacle without making us even more a pariah around the world.

Can we turn the clock back. At least in days of coalition Lib Dems would have not allowed a referendum.

[Sydenham Syd]

We know they are insane , tell us something new.

How do we get out of this debacle without making us even more a pariah around the world.

Can we turn the clock back. At least in days of coalition Lib Dems would have not allowed a referendum.

Sorry, it was for the benefit of the leavers on this quite enlightening thread

[stuart]

You are right in one thing: it was (almost) my generation that oversaw "the shambles" by making the big mistake of voting to Join the EEC in the first place.

And some of us thought it the right decision then and to remain in the EU now. I don't know if you had to trade with France back then but it was a nightmare. French customs enjoyed screwing us up and I have no doubt we did the same in return.

The single market transformed things. It makes trivial adding any EU country to your list of customers or suppliers. Leaving the single market would, for many, be a economic disaster. It takes decades to rebuild a market, months to lose them. Even uncertainty is a big negative.

The Brexiters are now speedily shifting their position saying they will negotiate staying in the single market. EU heads are saying if you want that then you have to pay and accept free movement. Well I'm sure some compromise can be fudged where EU countries want to adjust the immigration issue to halt the embarrassment the Syrian debacle has caused but it is unlikely to be fundamental.

So we, like Norway, still get the immigrants, we, like Norway, pay the bill. The only difference is we lose the right to decide the rules (by veto or majority vote). So the major strand of the Brexiter's case of our democratic deficit gets worse, not better.

In other words this debacle has, at best, been all for nothing. We end up worse economically, politically and the major hope of reducing immigration is more likely (on past experience) to be due an economic malaise making us less attractive and emigration more attractive.

And Mary I remember like you those bad old days of the brain drain. Do we really want them back? And are some CVs already being sharpened by the many Germans. French and Italians who have helped make our city a star place to trade from?

Stuart

[Nigel]

And so it goes on - a gentle dig that liberals are getting nasty is met with liberals getting nasty .
For saying no more than : I voted leave , we got leave , am happy, I have been called : pensioner , old duffer , " big Nige" (???) blamed for Boris Johnson , blamed for labours vanity project ( Corbyn ) , the falling pound , the rising interest and god knows what .
Far from wanting the 50s back ( Sydenham Syd in a normal world would be chastised for stereotyping and ageism ) I see BREXIT as looking forward - genuinely .

Most of the fears expressed are about a nation too stupid to manage itself , some voters not being bright enough ( we are al stupid , some moreso ) and most of all about daring to have a different view .
Admin is right re ad hominem ( I think "play the ball , not the homosexual" , in Latin ) attacks .
It's time to get our big girls knickers on and move forward . The pound and FTSE rallied a little today and as Mary said , the sky didn't fall in , and it won't
A very good evening
Nigel