OK this is a rant. But it's a rant about historical documents.
It's probably something that experienced local historians like Steve are well aware of, but as just the owner of a Victorian house wanting to find out about its history, it came as a bit of a shock to me!
The historic Deeds for our house have been lost or destroyed!
This isn't a mistake, it seems to be a deliberate policy. Deeds aren't held by Land Registry - they are only interested in a proof of title. Since around 2003 any changes of title have only been made electronically. Yesterday I was charged £40 for the privilege of looking through the Land Registry file for my own house.
There is nothing on the file later than 1994 - when the previous owners purchased the property. My husband and I bought the house in 2002 - but we're not mentioned in the paper file.
There is nothing earlier than 1915 (the house was constructed between 1871 & 1875) because that's when it was first "registered".
There's also a gap between 1948 & 1981 and then only sporadic bits & pieces until 1993.
The mortgage company (who I had always assumed held the Deeds) don't hold them. Because all they are required to hold is an electronic copy of the Transfer of Title.
I am now trying to trace back through various mortgage companies and solicitors to find out at what point the Deeds were last seen ... in the desperate hope that someone, somewhere still has them.
It's the attitude behind all this that really gets my blood pressure up! The Land Registry, the banks, building societies and solicitors all have the attitude that historic paperwork isn't important or worth saving (or offering to the householders) because it's not needed any more to prove Title. Electronic proof of Title is all the Government say is required therefore that's all they'll do. No one I've spoken in any of these organizations can even comprehend why I'm bothered!
Land Registry Rant
And another thing ...
Although you don't have to present any form of ID and can ask to view anybody's property details (except probably celebs, royality, MPs etc) you're not allowed to see the file by yourself. You have to have a Land Registry customer services person sitting with you.
It took me about an hour and a quarter to look through the file for my house. I was made to feel pretty uncomfortable about taking this long to make my notes. But remember this was my ONLY opportunity to view about a hundred years of info on my house and I was dealing with pretty awful handwriting & jargon. Photocopies are an astronomical £10 per document - although they do waive the £10 viewing fee for that file. The info on my house though had been split across 4 files - so I was charged £40.
Now looking through the photocopy of one of the few documents I could afford to have copied - and, incidentally, one that I was advised wasn't important as it was only the Land Registry's notes, but which I HAD to have photocopied as I couldn't read the handwriting in the time I was given - I see that their Surveyor, in 1915, wrote "see also" followed by another reference number.
This turns out to be the house next door, which at the time may have been owned by the same people and rented out, with certain elements shared between the two houses.
It's obviously of interest to me to see this file, so I have just phoned Land Registry and requested the file. And I'm told (admittedly very politely) "if you could just limit your appointment to one hour, as we do have other customers"!
So for £40 - ONE HOUR!!! And I thought family history research was expensive.
Although you don't have to present any form of ID and can ask to view anybody's property details (except probably celebs, royality, MPs etc) you're not allowed to see the file by yourself. You have to have a Land Registry customer services person sitting with you.
It took me about an hour and a quarter to look through the file for my house. I was made to feel pretty uncomfortable about taking this long to make my notes. But remember this was my ONLY opportunity to view about a hundred years of info on my house and I was dealing with pretty awful handwriting & jargon. Photocopies are an astronomical £10 per document - although they do waive the £10 viewing fee for that file. The info on my house though had been split across 4 files - so I was charged £40.
Now looking through the photocopy of one of the few documents I could afford to have copied - and, incidentally, one that I was advised wasn't important as it was only the Land Registry's notes, but which I HAD to have photocopied as I couldn't read the handwriting in the time I was given - I see that their Surveyor, in 1915, wrote "see also" followed by another reference number.
This turns out to be the house next door, which at the time may have been owned by the same people and rented out, with certain elements shared between the two houses.
It's obviously of interest to me to see this file, so I have just phoned Land Registry and requested the file. And I'm told (admittedly very politely) "if you could just limit your appointment to one hour, as we do have other customers"!
So for £40 - ONE HOUR!!! And I thought family history research was expensive.
Dear User100: Yes it is a Rant I'm afraid, but it is a Rant with a Purpose. The Purpose being to alert other home owners to what is going on. So thank you for not editing this out.
I hope that this will be a warning to everyone who has bought - or even just re-mortgaged - their home in the past few years. Anyone who is in this position and who is at all concerned about the possibility of their house Deeds (aka the historical record of their property) being destroyed would be well advised to check with their mortgage lender just what they hold.
I had long intended to find out about the history of our house but it was only because a Right of Access to our back garden had been closed off that I needed to check the Deeds. When I asked the mortgage lender for a photocopy of the Deeds they told me they only keep an electronic copy of the Title Transfer. All the Title Transfer says is that the house is owned in our names and that the building society has a Charge on it.
Mortgage lenders either destroy the Deeds or send them to the solicitor they think organized the purchase. In our case the solicitor has long ago ceased trading. Because the mortgage lenders (following Government lead) say these documents are "worthless" they don't even post them Recorded Delivery!
Surely I'm not alone in being concerned about the destruction of our local historical record?
I hope that this will be a warning to everyone who has bought - or even just re-mortgaged - their home in the past few years. Anyone who is in this position and who is at all concerned about the possibility of their house Deeds (aka the historical record of their property) being destroyed would be well advised to check with their mortgage lender just what they hold.
I had long intended to find out about the history of our house but it was only because a Right of Access to our back garden had been closed off that I needed to check the Deeds. When I asked the mortgage lender for a photocopy of the Deeds they told me they only keep an electronic copy of the Title Transfer. All the Title Transfer says is that the house is owned in our names and that the building society has a Charge on it.
Mortgage lenders either destroy the Deeds or send them to the solicitor they think organized the purchase. In our case the solicitor has long ago ceased trading. Because the mortgage lenders (following Government lead) say these documents are "worthless" they don't even post them Recorded Delivery!
Surely I'm not alone in being concerned about the destruction of our local historical record?
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Steve Grindlay
- Posts: 606
- Joined: 4 Oct 2004 05:07
- Location: Upper Sydenham
I entirely agree with you, marymck. It wasn't a rant, but a rational response to a matter of great concern to all those who feel that original historic documents must be preserved.
This article , from 2001, was amongst the first to highlight the vulnerability of deeds and leases and of the need protect them.
When I realised what was happening, some years ago, I decided whenever I came across a local lease I would buy it. My documents, and many others, will eventually end up in local history centres where others can refer to them. However, many are still held by banks, building societies, estate agents and even private individuals who may well be unaware of their historical interest. And there are very many, I have no doubt, that have already been destroyed.
This article , from 2001, was amongst the first to highlight the vulnerability of deeds and leases and of the need protect them.
When I realised what was happening, some years ago, I decided whenever I came across a local lease I would buy it. My documents, and many others, will eventually end up in local history centres where others can refer to them. However, many are still held by banks, building societies, estate agents and even private individuals who may well be unaware of their historical interest. And there are very many, I have no doubt, that have already been destroyed.
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tulse hill terry
- Posts: 688
- Joined: 25 Jun 2007 01:33
- Location: sarf lunnen
And I thought it was just me being horrified at the use of historical legal documents as a decorative craft material.
"Why not try decoupage with these crazee old wills. Isnt the calligraphy a wonderfully gothic touch !!!!!!!!!"
I'm also not too happy with dealers cutting out engravings while forgetting the accompanying article/text.
[I won't start on about sources again.]
"Why not try decoupage with these crazee old wills. Isnt the calligraphy a wonderfully gothic touch !!!!!!!!!"
I'm also not too happy with dealers cutting out engravings while forgetting the accompanying article/text.
[I won't start on about sources again.]
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Steve Grindlay
- Posts: 606
- Joined: 4 Oct 2004 05:07
- Location: Upper Sydenham
Even worse is when they buy a whole book or magazine simply to cut out the engravings and sell them separately. The most lucrative for this vandalism seems to be Old and New London and early copies of Illustrated London News.tulse hill terry wrote:I'm also not too happy with dealers cutting out engravings while forgetting the accompanying article/text