'Legible London' sign outside Palace Wines
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biscuitman1978
- Posts: 1588
- Joined: 16 May 2006 20:14
- Location: Chislehurst; previously Sydenham
'Legible London' sign outside Palace Wines
I'm afraid that the Legible London sign outside the Pedder estate agent office has suffered a similar fate to the sign outside Palace Wines:
Re: 'Legible London' sign outside Palace Wines
Going back to what Michael suggested, I too think it would be a good idea if someone were able to print a map & list local shops & businesses until these are able to mended.
Regardless if the original one was bespoke or not this could still be doable at no cost if a few people are willing to give a bit of free work & time.
Our actual FH map/shop directory in our newish "welcome to Forest Hill" sign/stand was done for no cost. One of the creative traders (def not me) drew our map then a local resident (graphic design & branding), not trader I have links to transferred the drawings to graphics & done the large print out for us.
If you could get a couple of locals to do this for free it could be a good substitute until money is found (one way or another) to fix the stands properly.
Regardless if the original one was bespoke or not this could still be doable at no cost if a few people are willing to give a bit of free work & time.
Our actual FH map/shop directory in our newish "welcome to Forest Hill" sign/stand was done for no cost. One of the creative traders (def not me) drew our map then a local resident (graphic design & branding), not trader I have links to transferred the drawings to graphics & done the large print out for us.
If you could get a couple of locals to do this for free it could be a good substitute until money is found (one way or another) to fix the stands properly.
Re: 'Legible London' sign outside Palace Wines
It amazes me that no one in Tfl / council thought it sensible to keep a couple of spare fascias for future replacement.
Re: 'Legible London' sign outside Palace Wines
I'm assuming that these panels don't just fall off and there is no sign of damage from a collision or similar, so I assume that at least one of these was a deliberate act of vandalism.
Almost certainly proof that when you leave one sign missing people will copy this and vandalise the other one. When the council doesn't maintain street signage it is an invitation to idiots to carry out more vandalism all around the high street. This is now a classic example of the Broken windows theory.
The council have made their position clear - they are not willing to spend £600 to prevent further vandalism taking place in Sydenham. So far I think we can infer that this decision has cost an additional £600 worth of vandalism in Sydenham, but more than this it detracts from the area and encourages all sorts of additional anti-social behaviour (according to the broken windows theory) this may be harder to monitor or put a monetary value on, but a correlation almost certainly exists and is probably greater than another £600 so far.
While I would like to suggest that the council should pay for such maintenance, I also think that there are numerous ways to find £1200 to get the repairs done. Is somebody actually doing something about this or is everybody just passing the buck?
Almost certainly proof that when you leave one sign missing people will copy this and vandalise the other one. When the council doesn't maintain street signage it is an invitation to idiots to carry out more vandalism all around the high street. This is now a classic example of the Broken windows theory.
The council have made their position clear - they are not willing to spend £600 to prevent further vandalism taking place in Sydenham. So far I think we can infer that this decision has cost an additional £600 worth of vandalism in Sydenham, but more than this it detracts from the area and encourages all sorts of additional anti-social behaviour (according to the broken windows theory) this may be harder to monitor or put a monetary value on, but a correlation almost certainly exists and is probably greater than another £600 so far.
While I would like to suggest that the council should pay for such maintenance, I also think that there are numerous ways to find £1200 to get the repairs done. Is somebody actually doing something about this or is everybody just passing the buck?
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sydenhamboy
- Posts: 264
- Joined: 8 Oct 2006 10:33
- Location: sydenham
Re: 'Legible London' sign outside Palace Wines
Scum. Sub-human scum.
Re: 'Legible London' sign outside Palace Wines
Three questions:
1. Is there a problem with the signs being too easily vandalised? Were the panels lifted out or smashed out?
2. If money is raised from residents to repair them, how happy are they going to be if the next set of panels are also removed?
3. Smart as the signs are, are they of any use in Sydenham? Do people use them or do they just add to street clutter?
1. Is there a problem with the signs being too easily vandalised? Were the panels lifted out or smashed out?
2. If money is raised from residents to repair them, how happy are they going to be if the next set of panels are also removed?
3. Smart as the signs are, are they of any use in Sydenham? Do people use them or do they just add to street clutter?
Re: 'Legible London' sign outside Palace Wines
Just wondering if anyone wants to respond to this.
I'm FH not Sydenham but happy to suggest ideas of getting funding together if anyone want's to take the lead.
I don't necessarily think it needs to come from residents.
Thoughts would be good for starters
I'm FH not Sydenham but happy to suggest ideas of getting funding together if anyone want's to take the lead.
I don't necessarily think it needs to come from residents.
Thoughts would be good for starters
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biscuitman1978
- Posts: 1588
- Joined: 16 May 2006 20:14
- Location: Chislehurst; previously Sydenham
'Legible London' sign outside Palace Wines
Thanks very much for picking this up.P1971 wrote:Just wondering if anyone wants to respond to this.
I'm FH not Sydenham but happy to suggest ideas of getting funding together if anyone want's to take the lead.
I don't necessarily think it needs to come from residents.
Thoughts would be good for starters
Way back on 12 February 2016 I said:
I think that seeking funds from the Sydenham Assembly is the most realistic way of getting this sorted, but I'd like to hear other suggestions, so please do share your ideas, P1971. Once we know what the options are we can identify the right person or group to take this forward.biscuitman1978 wrote:[P]erhaps we can discuss how we're going to get the sign fixed?!
There are, I think, three options:
- Find a generous single donor (unlikely)
- Wait until further funds are being allocated to local projects by the Sydenham Assembly
- Crowdfund a replacement (as sydres suggested)
Any other ideas? And which one should we pursue?
Re: 'Legible London' sign outside Palace Wines
in my opinion it should be either TFL or Lewisham who fund the fix.
it's their sign, they put it in, it's on the public highway, they should have secured funding somewhere for maintenance.
the fact that they didn't is irrelevant. they should be made to find funds from somewhere else.
£600 in the grand scheme of Lewisham Council entire budget is miniscule.
one problem I see is that it isn't a dangerous sign, so will have lower priority to be fixed than one which has, say, live wires sticking out, or pieces hanging off it.
but as I said before with #IhatePurelake #Greyhound the more people who make noise the quicker it'll get fixed.
it's their sign, they put it in, it's on the public highway, they should have secured funding somewhere for maintenance.
the fact that they didn't is irrelevant. they should be made to find funds from somewhere else.
£600 in the grand scheme of Lewisham Council entire budget is miniscule.
one problem I see is that it isn't a dangerous sign, so will have lower priority to be fixed than one which has, say, live wires sticking out, or pieces hanging off it.
but as I said before with #IhatePurelake #Greyhound the more people who make noise the quicker it'll get fixed.
Re: 'Legible London' sign outside Palace Wines
Here's a few suggestions that might raise the money to get the signs fixed quickly.
- Ask all businesses (shopfront or not) to donate something (i.e dinner for two, use of venue for party, occasional cake, voucher etc) for an auction. I'd also suggest that you ask the venue (local pub, cafe etc) where you would hold the auction to give a percentage (say 10%) of their extra takings they take by hosting this event. I done this in FH as part of a fundraiser I done for Evelina Children's Hospital & raised over £600 from the auction alone. Sydenham has at least double the amount of shops than FH has so I think £1200 would be achievable.
- If you were able to add a shop directory to the signs local shops could pay a fee to be included. The way our sign works in FH is that FHTA members are the ones included in our shop directory. Members pay £80 per year to have extra benefits & this money is spent on joint community goings on/events.
- I'm not sure if Sydenham has a traders association or not but if you have this might be the kind of thing they could pay for from membership fees if it was beneficial to the traders (I.e adding a shop directory to the signage).
Hope this is helpful biscuitman1978, I'm happy for you to pop in for a chat anytime if you want to discuss any of these further.
- Ask all businesses (shopfront or not) to donate something (i.e dinner for two, use of venue for party, occasional cake, voucher etc) for an auction. I'd also suggest that you ask the venue (local pub, cafe etc) where you would hold the auction to give a percentage (say 10%) of their extra takings they take by hosting this event. I done this in FH as part of a fundraiser I done for Evelina Children's Hospital & raised over £600 from the auction alone. Sydenham has at least double the amount of shops than FH has so I think £1200 would be achievable.
- If you were able to add a shop directory to the signs local shops could pay a fee to be included. The way our sign works in FH is that FHTA members are the ones included in our shop directory. Members pay £80 per year to have extra benefits & this money is spent on joint community goings on/events.
- I'm not sure if Sydenham has a traders association or not but if you have this might be the kind of thing they could pay for from membership fees if it was beneficial to the traders (I.e adding a shop directory to the signage).
Hope this is helpful biscuitman1978, I'm happy for you to pop in for a chat anytime if you want to discuss any of these further.
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biscuitman1978
- Posts: 1588
- Joined: 16 May 2006 20:14
- Location: Chislehurst; previously Sydenham
'Legible London' sign outside Palace Wines
Thanks, P1971. To be honest, I'll be leaving Sydenham soon for pastures new. Whilst I continue to chase the repairs to the pavements and to report graffiti and fly-tipping (and I will for at least for as long as I own a property in Sydenham), I'm hoping somebody else will pick this up...P1971 wrote:Hope this is helpful biscuitman1978, I'm happy for you to pop in for a chat anytime if you want to discuss any of these further.
Re: 'Legible London' sign outside Palace Wines
@ biscuitman1978: Sorry to hear we'll be losing your knowledge and engagement in Sydenham matters.but I hope we, STF, isn't as hoping you'll keep an eye on us
I, as am sure others do, wish you well in your pastures new.
As to the legible signs, would any private attempt to mend them be considered defacement and the council would find the money to send someone round to remove any improvement until their agreement was obtained beforehand? Of course, if the council is actually happy that they can leave their signs in disrepair and the public will fix them, I don't think that's a good message to send out, as I've already said.
I've never seen anyone looking at either of the two in question, so P1971's idea of making them more useful makes sense. However, in such a limited size, data crowding might make it a "blur" rather than "legible" signposting.
FWIW, I think there should be a "You are Here" map on the dreadful loo on Station Approach which is still the black box it started out as. There's a lot more space and it could carry a lot more detail. I can't imagine shopkeepers wanting to pay for it though.
I, as am sure others do, wish you well in your pastures new.
As to the legible signs, would any private attempt to mend them be considered defacement and the council would find the money to send someone round to remove any improvement until their agreement was obtained beforehand? Of course, if the council is actually happy that they can leave their signs in disrepair and the public will fix them, I don't think that's a good message to send out, as I've already said.
I've never seen anyone looking at either of the two in question, so P1971's idea of making them more useful makes sense. However, in such a limited size, data crowding might make it a "blur" rather than "legible" signposting.
FWIW, I think there should be a "You are Here" map on the dreadful loo on Station Approach which is still the black box it started out as. There's a lot more space and it could carry a lot more detail. I can't imagine shopkeepers wanting to pay for it though.
Re: 'Legible London' sign outside Palace Wines
Sorry for the late response on this guys, but I don't see why traders shouldn't contribute to this one way or another.
Biscuitman1978, I wish you well in your new dwellings
We or I get very involved in FH activities. If one Sydenham trader could take the lead on this project I'm sure it could work.
Another option would be for a trader to work with Syd Soc. I work with Michael from FH Soc on community projects & we seem to do okay. We don't always agree (as we are both strong minded) but we both want what's best for our community so work on this.
I always have a Nerf gun & silly string ready to shoot Michael if he doesn't agree with me though!
Running for cover now Michael
Biscuitman1978, I wish you well in your new dwellings
We or I get very involved in FH activities. If one Sydenham trader could take the lead on this project I'm sure it could work.
Another option would be for a trader to work with Syd Soc. I work with Michael from FH Soc on community projects & we seem to do okay. We don't always agree (as we are both strong minded) but we both want what's best for our community so work on this.
I always have a Nerf gun & silly string ready to shoot Michael if he doesn't agree with me though!
Running for cover now Michael
Re: 'Legible London' sign outside Palace Wines
I don't see why any private citizen, trader or otherwise, should contribute to fixing these signs. It's like the council refusing to replace broken bins or street lights and local residents and traders putting their hands in their pockets to do the job. Who do these signs belong to? How would the repair be commissioned? Who would liaise with the manufacturer and arrange the installation of new panels? Who would own the new panel, compared with the rest of the sign? What happens (as has been asked before) if it's vandalised again?
If they are not going to be fixed they should be removed, at Lewisham's expense. They just add clutter. No one uses them.
If they are not going to be fixed they should be removed, at Lewisham's expense. They just add clutter. No one uses them.
Re: 'Legible London' sign outside Palace Wines
I agree with you Rachael that it should be down to LC who I gather (from previous posts) are supposed to maintain these & TFL who funded these to repair them, but neither seem to be willing to do this.
If traders/residents/groups are able to raise the money to have these fixed I would assume & hope that local Cllr's could assist with permission etc to have new signs installed.
On the other hand, again I agree with you that if they are not able to be fixed they should be removed, but I doubt very much that either LC or TFL will take on this responsibility either.
If traders/residents/groups are able to raise the money to have these fixed I would assume & hope that local Cllr's could assist with permission etc to have new signs installed.
On the other hand, again I agree with you that if they are not able to be fixed they should be removed, but I doubt very much that either LC or TFL will take on this responsibility either.