Yummy Mummies, Wet Wipes & Archies

[Robin Orton]

The attitude in Jolly's post, and a few others, that the café in the park is a café for parents and kids, is part of the problem. Perhaps this explains the attitude of some of the parents in there, because as far as I know this isn't a niche café.

What is a 'niche café'? And how is it relevant to children's behaviour or parents' attitudes?

[Rachael]

Rod, your point is still moot, even if you bend my words. If you don't like having kids around, just don't go where you're bound to find plenty and go to the Dolphin, for example.

I know Rod can speak for himself, but he never said he doesn't like kids per se, did he?

Like many online debates, this has become binary when the situation is more nuanced than that. It is perfectly possible to dislike the attitude of SOME parents who put their children's desires above everyone else's while AT THE SAME TIME being perfectly happy sharing cafe space with the majority of parents who encourage their children to learn consideration for others AND to acknowledge that it's sometimes difficult to get the little blighters to behave themselves.

[Robin Orton]

What is a 'niche café'? And how is it relevant to children's behaviour or parents' attitudes?

Jolly had suggested Green and Blue is a chain specialised in cafes for families and groups of yummies; saying my expectations of it should be adjusted accordingly. In other words the cafe was specifically designed for families.

Ah I see, thanks. To me, 'niche café' suggests some combination of fruit teas, vegan fairy cakes, free-range (or do I mean 'pastured'?) samosas, topless waitresses, leather sofas and a faint whiff of exotic cheroots. I wouldn't have thought of applying it to cafes where children and families are welcome.

[mosy]

I agree with something rod taylor asked earlier about whether there should be a limit to just how bad a situation is before the management has "a quiet word" or otherwise steps in. The point is, apart from putting off some of the café's quieter clientele it can also put mums & dads off who don't want their children to learn by bad examples of other kids' behaviour that isn't at least reasonably held in check. Nobody expects kids to sit still forever but that doesn't give carte blanche to run riot.

Logically parents will know how long their own little angel(s) will sit still and/or be quiet for and must also know that once the lid blows it's the point of no return. I personally think that naturally boisterous kids should be allowed to have spiritedness, but a small sit-down café just isn't the place.

I haven't been to Brown & Green in winter when playing outside might not be possible, but I was surprised that when I asked my optician if there was a good non-busy time to come in, they said that as it was half term there'd be lots of kids in. I asked quizzically, "So?" Reply was that they could be unruly. It struck me as weird as although kids might take no notice of mum or dad, they usually respect an "authority figure" - if there is one. Maybe management now think they have to "put up with it" now. Hmm.

[leenewham]

Precisely. I was trying to establish that Brown & Green was not a niche cafe; and in fact children and families are not exclusively welcome.

No cafe is. I'm not sure why anyone would think that is the case. It's in a park, so attracts all sorts of people like all cafes do in parks.

I have to say that I've been to Brown and Green many times (I was there yesterday) and I haven't witnessed any of what Rod describes. It can't be like that on every visit Rod, surely? Occasionally perhaps?

There was a family in there yesterday. A small child cried for about 30 seconds, one was asleep, another one talked and made some noise, but no more than the parents who were chatting. I have a meeting in there and took a phone call with a client which was fine, although it can get noisy in there from people generally talking.

It's a fairly noisy cafe anyway, although the music was at a more reasonable level yesterday (that was the main thing that put me off in the past). It's not the place to go for peace and quiet, it's not that sort of cafe. All the surfaces are hard, nothing soaks noise up, the kitchens are open and they play music and it's especially noisy when it's busy and queues form.

I'd say the cafe is EVERYONE friendly, dog owners (and their dogs), walkers, kids, families, anyone using the park, from 0-90.

[Rachael]

If you want to see REALLY bad behaviour in that café, I'll bring Demon Dog in.

[mosy]

...[clip]...
I'd say the cafe is EVERYONE friendly, dog owners (and their dogs), walkers, kids, families, anyone using the park, from 0-90.

Struth! I didn't know they had an ageist rule about over-90s

[Pally]

Rod, your point is still moot, even if you bend my words. If you don't like having kids around, just don't go where you're bound to find plenty and go to the Dolphin, for example.

But its not about not having kids around, that's not what Rods original post suggests! And the Dolphin is a very different type of venue to Green and Browns ...so not comparable. And anyway, there are children at the Dolphin!

[Sydney83]

Was that today or the experience you had last time you went?
I was in there today around 9.30am with my 18 months old.
There were three other young children with their mothers, all very well behaved and none of the mothers stayed long - we stayed about how 30min - and although I consider myself quite strict and I will admit that I HATE badly behaved children, sometimes my 18 months old becomes very difficult and there is no reasoning with her.. Anyway just to say that there was a couple next to me that kept looking at me and my daughter (who was well behaved) and I must admit I have not felt this stressed and uncomfortable in a while... I kept thinking about this post, praying my child would behave! How sad is that?!

[Rachael]

I kept thinking about this post, praying my child would behave! How sad is that?!

Hi Sydney. It was today, but it wasn't at 9:30 this morning. It was later.

The fact that you were concerned how others in the vicinity feel demonstrates that you are definitely not the problem. It is the quite large number of mothers, and fathers, who don't worry that are the problem. Today was the perfect example.

If anyone has any advice as to what I should have done I'm grateful to hear it - I can't for the life of me think what I could have done differently. There was a total absence of parenting going on. Someone had to step in.

As a parent, I would much rather you had spoken to me rather than my child, no matter how pleasantly you thought you handled it. I'm not saying I would have been happy to be told my child was being a pest, but seeing someone tell her directly, in the guise of being 'nice' would have made me see red. Don't get me wrong, I see nothing wrong in reprimanding other people's children when necessary, but I'd never do that if the responsible adult was right there and I could talk to them directly. Why, and this is a genuine question, did you not do that?

[Sydney83]

In any case it is not pleasant when someone thinks your child is badly behaved enough for them to intervene whether they say it to you or you child. I understand what Rod is saying and I completely agree that some parents simply don't care (ie: parents taking pictures and smiling while their child has a tantrum) and we see it everyday. I say this as a mother of an 18 mo & 5 yo. It is embarrassing when I am with friends whose children are being naughty and they don't say anything and when your child tries to do the same thing (because the other one gets away with it) you tell them off.
I am not quite sure why this post is so controversial bottom line is, it happens for children to misbehave but as long as the parents do something about it then it's fine, it's the "laisser-faire" attitude of some that is irritating.
But maybe the STF is not the best place to discuss this...

[coll]

THANKS so much for starting this thread. I think the cafe is great but I NEVER go in. I actually don't feel welcome which, I know, is silly however, it is too much to deal with. Its not the children but the parents who seem claim ownership of these places and seem oblivious that, though others may not have an issue with kids, we may just want to sit and have a quiet coffee or something to eat.
After 4 visits... all of which involved had been interrupted by mummies or kids disturbing the rest of the place, I've stopped going in. Its a real shame but I suppose its a captive audience for the place.

[Ronski]

At times I totally agree with Rod, so wanted to say well done for saying something. Rarely seen anyone do that, maybe once.

I don't subscribe to the descriptions as yummy mummy etc. as its stereotyping.

Its not a majority of parents, but some allow their children to cause a disproportionate amount of noise in there so it feels like it. I don't think it's a malicious disregard at all, probably more to do with their level of 'normal' noise levels is crazy (relatively) and saying stop it 300 times makes them tap out of doing anything. Add being outside and chatting to friends must be a welcome break from the chaos. Just leaving them to carry on is what people perceive as irritating.

Parents are responsible for their children's behaviour so speaking to the adult should be the right response. I utterly despair how a few think drumming with cutlery on metal tables or screaming like teradactyls is acceptable in a cafe though?

Another thing that gets my goat, while we are on the subject, is parents who let their kids play with all the cutlery in there, that is disgusting with the amount of germs kids pick up from other kids/school. Again not the kids fault, some parents act like they are at home and their little Caesar is distracted, that is something the cafe should do something about.

Once it warms though it should be a nicer place to sit down with more space, and despite this noise, I'm still glad it's there.

[SepticSkeptic]

Cheer up guys.

It's a great cafe.

[leenewham]

Agree. It's great.

[Whiftoff]

Rod this sounds right up your street. 550 kids/yummy mummies all under one roof and probably all high on sugar!

https://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic ... 20&t=15061

I am tempted to take the relatively well behaved nippers but am a bit concerned about the toilet situation.

[Rachael]

It's interesting that the mums and dads find it hard to see the point we're making though...

Eh? Without trawling through the thread again, I seem to remember some people who admit to also being parents agreeing with you in principle, myself included.