rod taylor wrote:
Let's be clear: there is absolutely no reason at all why children cannot sit quietly at a table. The fact that a great many in Green & Blacks do not is bad parenting.
Children don't like sitting quietly at a table. How do you make them?
There are lots of things children don't like doing, but we as parents make them. Sitting quietly at a table is one of them. When mine were too little to be reasoned with, I brought entertainment for them. What was never permitted was getting out of their chairs without permission. Can't remember how I achieved that, except that it was generally accepted that I was The Benevolent Dictator and challenging that would make me change into the Disapproval Dispensing Despot.
rod taylor wrote:
Look, you know where I'm going with this. One year and a half later I doubt Dante could have devised a circle of hell that would agree to accomodate [sic] the clientele of Green & Blacks. I don't blame the assorted three year olds who form the greater chunk of customer, but the middle-class parents; the mummies with their yoga mats; the simpering men with the wet wipes on hand, they are what make having a coffee in the cafe something to be avoided.
Kind of amusing when someone makes a reference to Dante, and then demonstrates they can't spell their own language.
rod taylor wrote:
If we as a society cannot comment on the behaviour of others in the public realm without the inference that we're putting our oar in where it's not wanted, then what has happened to the caring, sharing society?
I'm glad you recognise the general right to comment on the behaviour of others in the public realm - such as their challenged orthography - even when not wanted.
As for a caring, sharing society, it's actually more important for society to be open, but it's not incompatible. In this case, it seems I care enough about your pontification to share my opinion about it with the rest of Sydenham.
BTW - this thread should be moved to the Town Pub - I'll ask Admin to do so right away.
i don't recognise what Rod talks about, and he can always go to lots of other places locally that don't have many kids in.
So soon as anywhere becomes a nice place to take kids to, someone always comes from 1952 and says kids should not be heard. The loudest thing in Brown and Green* to my experience is the music, which is too loud in my experience. We sometimes go for meetings or sometimes take my 4 year old, who I would consider well behaved most of the time. But he is 4 and sometimes, just sometimes, doesn't act as if standing in line at a royal gala.
Just like every kid has at some point.
The issue is that when your little darling doesn't behave well, which sometimes happens, you feel like a social pariah, that you have spoilt things for someone else. It's embarrassing and a horrible feeling (if you care). It's like people who eat smelly food on the train, or who play loud music or those annoying headphones or who peak loudly on their phones.
The things is, people who do that have complete control over their actions. You don't have complete control over your children (unless you live in Stepford or have endless supplies of duck tape after playing 'dress up like a mummy').
*Not to be confused with an organic chocolate brand.
Last edited by leenewham on 22 Feb 2016 15:56, edited 1 time in total.
Speaking as a parent of young children who visits often, I tend to agree that the cafe is becoming increasingly popular (and noisy). This will get marginally better as we approach the summer months however, long term it would be sensible to see how capacity could be increased outside perhaps by erecting some huts in the garden (like Dulwich Woodhouse)? Unfortunately the size of the kitchen will limit the number of tables one can serve.
We went to On The Hoof instead and enjoyed a more relaxed brunch. Service and food both excellent - a very welcome part of the High Street.
As a grandparent of two children under 4 I always have a small bag of " goodies" available when they are with me ......stickers, paper, pencil, crayons, colouring book, couple of books to look at ....... nothing bulky or heavy ....and both children know the expectations when in a café. Its different when outside at Brown and Greens ....they run around once they have finished eating but are not allowed to run around the tables! A couple of "consequence departures" because they were not sticking to expectations soon ensured that they now stick to them! The "consequence departure" will be used again if necessary!!!
Of course, as Lee says, no child is "well behaved" (subjective views of what that is will differ!!) all of the time, and certainly the pariah reference rings a bell ...both as a grandparent and memories as a parent. But Rod's reference to parents/carers appearing to be unaware of the impact of their children's behaviour/ their own behaviour on others also rings a bell! I don't suppose parents and grandparents can really be lumped together as an amorphous mass.... we are all different!!
We have visited Kente, Brown and Greens, Cherry and Ice, Blue Mountain and On the Hoof with them at various times ....On the Hoof provides crayons etc which is nice, and Cherry and Ice had toys when we were there.
We've had a whipround here at Admin towers and I'm pleased to say we can offer you the princely sum of £0.32 to put towards any package on here: http://www.adultsonlyholidays.co.uk/
Such a divisive topic, and one that will obviously put people on the defensive... but I must say, I have every sympathy with the behaviour you're referring to, Rod.
A friend of mine and her husband were recently in an Italian restaurant with their three year old. Towards the end of the meal the little girl was "flailing and running around", so they asked the waiter to remove the empty wine glasses from the vacant tables on either side of them. When he questioned this, both parents were disgusted, and felt hugely slighted (leaving the unfortunate waiter in no doubt about this). To my mind, though, the responsibility lay with them.
I don't have kids myself, but I have often sat with various tiny godchildren, desperately whispering them down with sotto vocce ministrations, whilst mentally daring anyone nearby to glare at us...! As you say, it's about consideration and awareness.
And obviously, if I have children in the future, I will always, always be in the right, even if they are playing with a howitzer in the British Museum during the three minute silence.
I think the issue is that people point to the odd instance of a kid being unruly, and think that every kid is the same or idiots like Janet Street Porter who would ban kids from restaurants (despite her being the loudest things I've ever had the displeasure of being in a restaurant with).
Obviously the example of the kid in the restaurant is bad parenting and rather extreme. Not all kids are like that. Not all parents are like that.
The issue isn't kids, it's badly behaved kids (and adults, which I'd argue is more of a problem!).
The issue isn't kids, it's badly behaved kids (and adults, which I'd argue is more of a problem!).[/quote]
Rod said in his original post that he didn't blame the kids! So then its probably sometimes parents being unreasonable and sometimes other adults being unreasonable!
my wife and I are careful about where we go out for a meal, choosing places that are not obviously un-child friendly, if you see what I mean. Mostly the little one is in a high chair, and everything is fine, we can move cutlery etc far enough away that he doesn't grab it and stab himself, or use them like drum sticks, so there's some control there. Once he's finished, we might not be, and if he wants to get down, sometimes it's easier to let him down, than try to contain the tantrum that ensues if he can't get down. Once out of the chair, we try to contain him within arms reach, and if there are mostly other parents and similar aged children, (or an empty restruant) then we let him go further. If there is someone aggrieved by his presence, then I try harder to contain him near me (the little one, not the annoyed person), or hurry up and leave.
If I'm out without the kid, I would choose somewhere without children in it, and if one was annoying me I'd say something.
like my friend recently, we were sat in The Dove on Broadway Market, Hackney, Friday afternoon, and a small child was swinging off the outside metal door, making a loud squeaking noise, the mother of the child was walking round outside on her mobile, and not a customer of the pub, and clealy not paying attention to the child. after a short while my friend stated very loudly "God that's getting really annoying now!" - loud enough for the mother to hear - she took the hint, and walked up the street with her child.
I occasionally pop in to buy a coffee/pastry with 2 young children in tow. We then retire to enjoy our purchases admiring the community garden or park. I find it often too busy to get a table in the cafe. I am very happy that business at the cafe is going so well.
I am sure that the owners have no desire to appear unfriendly or unwelcoming to young families who support their business. Being a park it is bound to attract families and if you enjoy a quiet coffee as other posters I would recommend On the Hoof, Kente House etc
As for your dislike of yoga mats (which I have yet to observe in the small cafe)...surely it is nice to see that people are looking after themselves mentally & physically?
Simpering dads with wet wipes seems a bit harsh. I think it is great that dads are much more hands-on compared to my father's generation. Especially as so many mothers can't afford not to return to work after having children.
Rod mate, the issue here is not bad parenting but, unfortunately, it's you.
Green and Blue is a chain specialised in cafes for families and groups of yummies, making a fortune out of it.
your point is moot, just like complaining that you went to the pub on a Friday night and it was full of drunks.
Also, for child-free meetings, you can go to the Alfred, the Dolphin, any greasy spoon on the high street...
Jollylolly wrote:Rod mate, the issue here is not bad parenting but, unfortunately, it's you.
Green and Blue is a chain specialised in cafes for families and groups of yummies, making a fortune out of it.
your point is moot, just like complaining that you went to the pub on a Friday night and it was full of drunks.
Also, for child-free meetings, you can go to the Alfred, the Dolphin, any greasy spoon on the high street...
As Jolly Jolly says, this is probably the only place in the high street that is, at certain times (not always), has a fair amount of parents and kids.
I have to admit, having been there a fair amount, sometimes for meetings, sometimes socially, sometimes with my son, who is 4, the loudest thing is the music. I've yet to witness any kids being particularly naughty or any particularly bad parenting.
What do people think is bad parenting though? Eagle? Rod? What does that mean?
Rod, your point is still moot, even if you bend my words. If you don't like having kids around, just don't go where you're bound to find plenty and go to the Dolphin, for example.
