Footway isn't designed to the same strengh as carriageway - it won't take vehicle movements for long, and will deteriorate quicker if driven on, that's parly why it's enforceable - might be worth sending the photos to Lewisham Council, to see what they can do about it.
an alternative to bollards could be cycle stands - they stop vehicles from accessing the pavement, and also provide a place for cycles to be locked.
otherwise a planted raised bed of some sort, a couple of feet high and wide, near the edge of the footway, would also work
Bollards
Re: Bollards
Street furniture can make spaces more inviting, unique and fun. I spent a few hours doing some research on Mintel reports etc yesterday which backed up a lot of what I'd learnt on high streets. I wont bore people with it here (besides, it's pointless, I've given up trying to do anything locally). But I thought I'd share some stuff which is inline with what high streets should be here in the context of bollards:
These were fun is Australia:
These outside a university are lovely:
I like Anthony Gormleys (like his in Bellenden)
Bollards which are also cycle racks:
Some nice bollards here:
http://www.theworkplacedepot.co.uk/news ... -bollards/
Or bespoke cycle racks like these we designed for Penge:
Lewisham wouldn't allow anything like this as it's controlled by their highways departments, who don't allow anything non-standard. We tried to update the street signs for Kirkdale, which you can't do as it doesn't fit in with their guidelines!
These were fun is Australia:
These outside a university are lovely:
I like Anthony Gormleys (like his in Bellenden)
Bollards which are also cycle racks:
Some nice bollards here:
http://www.theworkplacedepot.co.uk/news ... -bollards/
Or bespoke cycle racks like these we designed for Penge:
Lewisham wouldn't allow anything like this as it's controlled by their highways departments, who don't allow anything non-standard. We tried to update the street signs for Kirkdale, which you can't do as it doesn't fit in with their guidelines!
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Search East
- Posts: 119
- Joined: 6 Oct 2009 20:40
- Location: Sydenham
Re: Bollards
Finally! This has been my bug bear ever since moving to Sydenham!
There is a lot of demand on Holmshaw Close with all the flats competing with people seeing the doctors, and the traffic calming measures, but I've walked down there and had to step onto the road because cars were completely blocking the pavement, last week there were 5 cars parked on the pavements. If you were in a wheelchair or had a pram you would really be stuck.
Outside the shops is another matter, like somebody has already mentioned it often seems to be laziness and arrogance to blame, there are often spaces outside the businesses or on the adjacent streets. The business owners seem to be as guilty as their customers. I did point out to the lovely proprietor of Barakah takeaway that the bit of pavement adjoining the pedestrian crossing wasn't a parking space as I squeezed past his car, he took on board my comments and told me to shut up. Which is fine, we much prefer Millenium Tandoori anyway.
We have previously contacted Lewisham council to complain and ask what their stance was, whether their wardens cover this and they asked us to write a letter detailing each occurrence so there you go, that answered my question... The odd bits of floating pavements they added along Sydenham Rd after the extensive pavement works last year have only encouraged further dangerous parking both on the pavement and on the corners of roads.
It's interesting to read that traffic wardens have no jurisdiction to fine if a vehicle is on the pavement, obviously then why would you bother using one of the parking spaces and have to move after 40 mins or be fined when you can park all day on the pavement without bother?
Told you it was my pet peeve...
Search East's girlfriend
Keep your eye out when you're dropping off at Bell Green, it's absolutely rife in Lower Sydenham. Specifically on Holmshaw Close where Bell Green Doctors Surgery is and outside the shops and takeaways opposite the library on Sydenham Rd.monkeyarms wrote:Nigel, whereabouts were you thinking of specifically?
I haven't lived round here long - coming up to 3 months - but I've done a fair old bit of tramping the streets in that time, what with nursery drop-offs to Bell Green and commutes to work via Penge East and Sydenham stations. I can't recall once having to walk around a car parked on a pavement.
Maybe there are some roads where this is a problem, but I haven't yet walked down them.
There is a lot of demand on Holmshaw Close with all the flats competing with people seeing the doctors, and the traffic calming measures, but I've walked down there and had to step onto the road because cars were completely blocking the pavement, last week there were 5 cars parked on the pavements. If you were in a wheelchair or had a pram you would really be stuck.
Outside the shops is another matter, like somebody has already mentioned it often seems to be laziness and arrogance to blame, there are often spaces outside the businesses or on the adjacent streets. The business owners seem to be as guilty as their customers. I did point out to the lovely proprietor of Barakah takeaway that the bit of pavement adjoining the pedestrian crossing wasn't a parking space as I squeezed past his car, he took on board my comments and told me to shut up. Which is fine, we much prefer Millenium Tandoori anyway.
We have previously contacted Lewisham council to complain and ask what their stance was, whether their wardens cover this and they asked us to write a letter detailing each occurrence so there you go, that answered my question... The odd bits of floating pavements they added along Sydenham Rd after the extensive pavement works last year have only encouraged further dangerous parking both on the pavement and on the corners of roads.
It's interesting to read that traffic wardens have no jurisdiction to fine if a vehicle is on the pavement, obviously then why would you bother using one of the parking spaces and have to move after 40 mins or be fined when you can park all day on the pavement without bother?
Told you it was my pet peeve...
Search East's girlfriend
Re: Bollards
So many pleas from so may people. We can continue to moan and groan. But what's the point?
We want a result and we got one with the #RebuildTheGreyhound campaign.
What can be done here and is there a group of us willing to do it?
Stuart [hand-up]
We want a result and we got one with the #RebuildTheGreyhound campaign.
What can be done here and is there a group of us willing to do it?
Stuart [hand-up]
Re: Bollards
As to possible action, my first thought is that The Greyhound is a specific location, or target if you like, whereas with pavement parking several of us know where we see offending parkers frequently.
Perhaps a list of "hotspots" would be helpful so that any official monitoring could be locational and thus avoid ad hoc sightings reporting.
In my opinion, as with bollards, monitoring and controlling a specific area will just cause bad parking nearby, but "hotspots" locations to be monitored can be dynamic.
In other words, I think it's unlikely that some form of borough-wide policing will be instituted any time soon so much easier to campaign for specific areas needing minimal extra resource or extension of existing duties.
If a list is put together:
The top end of Silverdale where vehicles wait for arriving train passengers. Often vehicles are more on the pavement than the road and an open passenger door blocks all of it. The excuse offered is that they'll only be there for five minutes. (That is not an excuse.)
Perhaps a list of "hotspots" would be helpful so that any official monitoring could be locational and thus avoid ad hoc sightings reporting.
In my opinion, as with bollards, monitoring and controlling a specific area will just cause bad parking nearby, but "hotspots" locations to be monitored can be dynamic.
In other words, I think it's unlikely that some form of borough-wide policing will be instituted any time soon so much easier to campaign for specific areas needing minimal extra resource or extension of existing duties.
If a list is put together:
The top end of Silverdale where vehicles wait for arriving train passengers. Often vehicles are more on the pavement than the road and an open passenger door blocks all of it. The excuse offered is that they'll only be there for five minutes. (That is not an excuse.)
Re: Bollards
so firstly - is it illegal?
Secondly - is it enfoceable?
thirdly - who do we contact?
fourthly - what information do we need to supply?
if it's simply that anyone can take a photo (dated and timed), and email to Lewisham Council, then anyone of us could do that.
If it needs an enforcement officer to issue a ticket, then that's more difficult as they usually don't respond straight away to immediate requests.
either way - take notes of each occurence, with photos if available, and email to Lewisham Council.
if enough of us do this - they'll get the message.
copy in the Sydenham Society, and local councillors.
as with most things those who shout the loudest get the most attention - so lots of people reporting this should get the attention required.
Secondly - is it enfoceable?
thirdly - who do we contact?
fourthly - what information do we need to supply?
if it's simply that anyone can take a photo (dated and timed), and email to Lewisham Council, then anyone of us could do that.
If it needs an enforcement officer to issue a ticket, then that's more difficult as they usually don't respond straight away to immediate requests.
either way - take notes of each occurence, with photos if available, and email to Lewisham Council.
if enough of us do this - they'll get the message.
copy in the Sydenham Society, and local councillors.
as with most things those who shout the loudest get the most attention - so lots of people reporting this should get the attention required.
Re: Bollards
Hmm. Very little in the Highway code is enforceable by penalty, just saying not to do certain things. If pavement parking were allowed, councils wouldn't need to erect signs saying where specifically it is allowed. But is it illegal, meaning criminal offence? Doubtful if only disregarding byelaws, which I assume makes it a council matter.
I'm not sure if individual photo bombardment would have any effect if dismissed as one-off "gripes", but might have effect if presented as a composite significant bundle of "evidence" showing there was a case to be answered for some locations. Just my thought not knowing how a matter gets anywhere near to the top of a council's action pile.
I'm not sure if individual photo bombardment would have any effect if dismissed as one-off "gripes", but might have effect if presented as a composite significant bundle of "evidence" showing there was a case to be answered for some locations. Just my thought not knowing how a matter gets anywhere near to the top of a council's action pile.
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_HB
Re: Bollards
I know little of the local political structures. But you need to do a few things:
- Speak to your neighbours and colleagues and build up some numbers in support of action.
- Make a fuss with your ward councillors. If you don't know who that is, here is the list: http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/mayorandcoun ... fault.aspx E-mail them, tweet at them, harass them in the street, that kind of thing. Provide them with evidence as JR says above.
- Find out if any of said councillors are sympathetic. Avoid any that drive Land Rovers, retweet articles from the Telegraph or say things like "Enough is enough, we. are. full".
- Attend community meetings. The Met will hold regular community safety meetings. The Council hold regular neighbourhood forums. Make lots of noise at these. Publicise what you're doing. Annoy people.
- Consider direct action. Get some big vinyl stickers made up saying "selfish driver" and stick them to offending vehicles. Confront people parking on pavements. That kind of thing. Put bananas in exhaust pipes. Smoky fish in the grilles.
And then when nothing changes have an existential crisis and move to Kent.
- Speak to your neighbours and colleagues and build up some numbers in support of action.
- Make a fuss with your ward councillors. If you don't know who that is, here is the list: http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/mayorandcoun ... fault.aspx E-mail them, tweet at them, harass them in the street, that kind of thing. Provide them with evidence as JR says above.
- Find out if any of said councillors are sympathetic. Avoid any that drive Land Rovers, retweet articles from the Telegraph or say things like "Enough is enough, we. are. full".
- Attend community meetings. The Met will hold regular community safety meetings. The Council hold regular neighbourhood forums. Make lots of noise at these. Publicise what you're doing. Annoy people.
- Consider direct action. Get some big vinyl stickers made up saying "selfish driver" and stick them to offending vehicles. Confront people parking on pavements. That kind of thing. Put bananas in exhaust pipes. Smoky fish in the grilles.
And then when nothing changes have an existential crisis and move to Kent.
Re: Bollards
It is illegal, damaging, annoying but it is rife and if nothing changes will stay rife - or even get worse - if that is possible!
I refer to my previous post where The Greyhound was left to rot and would still be rotting today without a co-ordinated campaign to both shame the company and energise Lewisham to enforce their planning powers. This could be possible again if we could, say, get the Sydenham Society, Sydenham Traders and our Councillors with the backing of the Sydenham Assembly to work together and with anyone else interested.
To concentrate on one or two iconic locations and using both soft and hard methods of persuasion find out what works and what doesn't. Success would be sweet but, I would hope, only the precursor of clearing all the pavements of Sydenham. If our friends up in Forest Hill want to join in - then it would put more pressure on Lewisham to do what they can.
Mary, you feel strongly about the Kirkdale mini-roundabout area. Are you able to raise this with SydSoc and get their support to kick this off?
Sydenham Traders would be an interesting one. Some are complicit as we know but do value their public reputation and so may be susceptible to pressure. Some could, eh, disrupt parking with some strategically placed noticeboards (not strictly legal but less obstructive than the vehicles so a bit of a win). Maybe better than bollards or fines but in the end, if they are the only way, so be it.
Stuart
I refer to my previous post where The Greyhound was left to rot and would still be rotting today without a co-ordinated campaign to both shame the company and energise Lewisham to enforce their planning powers. This could be possible again if we could, say, get the Sydenham Society, Sydenham Traders and our Councillors with the backing of the Sydenham Assembly to work together and with anyone else interested.
To concentrate on one or two iconic locations and using both soft and hard methods of persuasion find out what works and what doesn't. Success would be sweet but, I would hope, only the precursor of clearing all the pavements of Sydenham. If our friends up in Forest Hill want to join in - then it would put more pressure on Lewisham to do what they can.
Mary, you feel strongly about the Kirkdale mini-roundabout area. Are you able to raise this with SydSoc and get their support to kick this off?
Sydenham Traders would be an interesting one. Some are complicit as we know but do value their public reputation and so may be susceptible to pressure. Some could, eh, disrupt parking with some strategically placed noticeboards (not strictly legal but less obstructive than the vehicles so a bit of a win). Maybe better than bollards or fines but in the end, if they are the only way, so be it.
Stuart
Re: Bollards
Stuart, where have you found that says it is illegal in London? These two sites say it isn't, although one says that obstruction is, yet virtually impossible to prove to the extent of achieving a successful prosecution. Maybe these are out of date if you say it is?
(London) https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q387.htm
http://pedestrianliberation.org/the-law-2/
(London) https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q387.htm
http://pedestrianliberation.org/the-law-2/
Re: Bollards
Mosy, from your first link:
Note that it is an offence to drive on the pavement
More importantly your second link:
Pavement parking was however successfully banned in London in 1974 by the Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1974 (section 15) and has been illegal in the city ever since.
I was once fined for having a rear wheel inadvertently 2" onto the pavement so I know very well it is an offence that has been successfully pursued in London if the council is willing. I park more carefully now.
Do you agree we appear to have the legal ammunition we need? It is just case of how to discharge it to the maximum effect.
Stuart
Note that it is an offence to drive on the pavement
More importantly your second link:
Pavement parking was however successfully banned in London in 1974 by the Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1974 (section 15) and has been illegal in the city ever since.
I was once fined for having a rear wheel inadvertently 2" onto the pavement so I know very well it is an offence that has been successfully pursued in London if the council is willing. I park more carefully now.
Do you agree we appear to have the legal ammunition we need? It is just case of how to discharge it to the maximum effect.
Stuart
Re: Bollards
The above appears to be confirmed on Lewisham's Parking Enforcement Page (5th blob down):
https://www.lewisham.gov.uk/myservices/ ... about.aspx
Its apparently a code 62/124cgj if you checkout the Higher level penalty charge parking contraventions
"Parked with one or more wheels on any part of an urban road other than a carriageway (footway parking)"
Stuart
https://www.lewisham.gov.uk/myservices/ ... about.aspx
Its apparently a code 62/124cgj if you checkout the Higher level penalty charge parking contraventions
"Parked with one or more wheels on any part of an urban road other than a carriageway (footway parking)"
Stuart
Re: Bollards
As I see it after reading this and that, the 1974 Act made parking on pavements illegal, but the relevant section 7 wasn't enabled, then was superseded by later acts incorporating amendments to the 1974 Act, but powers were subsequently devolved (on various councils' request) to summary conviction fines in London but remains a police matter if a prosecutable offence occurs.stuart wrote:...[clip]...
[Do you agree we appear to have the legal ammunition we need? It is just case of how to discharge it to the maximum effect.
Stuart
Therefore, I read that as the council having undertaken the day-to-day responsibility of upholding the law, including preventative measures to keep pedestrians safe, and they should be held accountable, rather than their waiting for enough accidents to make action (resources) monetarily justifiable (cost/risk analysis).
On the one hand, I would like to ask here what exactly we want to happen in practical terms, given restricted budgets, that we could expect to demand and achieve. On the other hand it is surely for the council to decide upon and do whatever is necessary to enforce the law for which they've taken devolved responsibility.
In practical terms, I wonder if Fix my Street might be a good avenue for drawing attention to specific locations.
Re: Bollards
reporting it on fixmystreet will certainly get it noticed.
suggesting that shops put up A-boards might stop the parking, but A-boards are obstructions to the footway, and need licences themselves, so the shopkeepers might, quite rightly, be reluctant at putting themselves at risk of fines for this.
stickers on windscreens, a good idea, but might also be illegal.
I suggest taking photo's with date time stamp, and collecting evidence over several days, then work out which part of Lewisham Council to send it to - could be Licencing, Parking, Highways, Enforcement, etc?
If you do stop people parking there - they will have to park somewhere else, which might just annoy other people equally as much as they annoy you now, so beware that they might end up parking outside your house, perfectly legally.
good luck either way
suggesting that shops put up A-boards might stop the parking, but A-boards are obstructions to the footway, and need licences themselves, so the shopkeepers might, quite rightly, be reluctant at putting themselves at risk of fines for this.
stickers on windscreens, a good idea, but might also be illegal.
I suggest taking photo's with date time stamp, and collecting evidence over several days, then work out which part of Lewisham Council to send it to - could be Licencing, Parking, Highways, Enforcement, etc?
If you do stop people parking there - they will have to park somewhere else, which might just annoy other people equally as much as they annoy you now, so beware that they might end up parking outside your house, perfectly legally.
good luck either way
Re: Bollards
Just to clarify, in the location that's top of my bugbear list, there is enough room for vehicles to park all four wheels on the road. The traffic is perfectly capable or sorting itself out.
That is what is so crazy. There seems to be an imperative not to obstruct traffic, yet no worries about restricting pavements to about 2 feet (or zero if passenger door opens). I politely ask drivers sitting in cars virtually every day to move their cars onto the road when I struggle to get past with shopping bags or worse they drive up on the pavement straight in front of me whilst I'm laden with shopping and expect me to get out of their way as yesterday. My pleas are completely ignored needless to say.
Mind you, I've even told a police car off. I know they're allowed to park anywhere but it wasn't an emergency call (they were coming back with sandwiches) so hardly setting a good example. I wonder if that's the point, i.e. that some locations are seen as the norm where it's OK to park on the pavement since nothing to stop it?
PS Edit: Rant over.
That is what is so crazy. There seems to be an imperative not to obstruct traffic, yet no worries about restricting pavements to about 2 feet (or zero if passenger door opens). I politely ask drivers sitting in cars virtually every day to move their cars onto the road when I struggle to get past with shopping bags or worse they drive up on the pavement straight in front of me whilst I'm laden with shopping and expect me to get out of their way as yesterday. My pleas are completely ignored needless to say.
Mind you, I've even told a police car off. I know they're allowed to park anywhere but it wasn't an emergency call (they were coming back with sandwiches) so hardly setting a good example. I wonder if that's the point, i.e. that some locations are seen as the norm where it's OK to park on the pavement since nothing to stop it?
PS Edit: Rant over.