I realise that pavement bollard / railings / barriers are very unpopular with some on this forum but ..... Without a physical barrier is there any way of stopping pavement parking ( and therefore driving ) on our pavements ?
My fervent hope would instant income would be generated by LBL ie set one tyre on pavement -then £100 fix penalty or a tow , no excuse no appeal . I don't believe this is happening .
The only non -physical deterrent is pleasant civilised people thinking that pavement parkers are selfish , thuggish and depressing to behold - which they are - that is to say , no deterrent at all ,
Provided the bollards were beautiful to look at - and they could be , like those in Bellenden Road, I would vote for them .
What do people think ?
A very good evening
Nigel
Bollards
Re: Bollards
Yes I agree Nigel – pavement parking most inconsiderate and annoying. Almost as annoying as pedestrians walking the length of Peak Hill Gardens, in the middle of the road coming from and going to the station. They obviously don’t realise that the pavement is for pedestrians and the road is for cars.
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_HB
Re: Bollards
The use of bollards on Bellenden Road just serves to highlight the real problem: Too many people making too many short trips by car. Bellenden is a traffic clogged nightmare at peak times. I wouldn't like to see more physical barriers. Can you really trust Lewisham to commission and install beautiful bollards?
If you don't want pavement parking on Sydenham High St then don't allow through traffic on the High Street. There is ample space in the off street car park.
If you don't want pavement parking on Sydenham High St then don't allow through traffic on the High Street. There is ample space in the off street car park.
Not so. The public highway is for everyone. You may use it in a motor car under licence. Obviously many don't realise that people on foot have absolute right of way which can lead to frustration and confusion.gillyjp wrote:They obviously don’t realise that the pavement is for pedestrians and the road is for cars.
Re: Bollards
HB
I don't dispute there are too many short journeys and that we should reduce them but until then cars off the pavement would be a forward step .
Tolerating cars on the pavement is surely encouraging just that . The kind of people who park on the pavement would be the very last to avoid an unnecessary car journey i suspect .
Re trusting lewisham , i agree i would not trust them to source something beautiful bit i would trust some like Lee Newham if he is not still traumatised by Lewisham's choice of WC , lights and benches
A very god evening
Nigel
I don't dispute there are too many short journeys and that we should reduce them but until then cars off the pavement would be a forward step .
Tolerating cars on the pavement is surely encouraging just that . The kind of people who park on the pavement would be the very last to avoid an unnecessary car journey i suspect .
Re trusting lewisham , i agree i would not trust them to source something beautiful bit i would trust some like Lee Newham if he is not still traumatised by Lewisham's choice of WC , lights and benches
A very god evening
Nigel
Re: Bollards
I agree pavements are for pedestrians and cars should NOT park or drive on the pavement. Same applies to bikes, excepting being ridden by young children
Not sure we want the expense of thousands and thousands of bollards just strict penalties for non observance of the law.
Not sure we want the expense of thousands and thousands of bollards just strict penalties for non observance of the law.
Re: Bollards
However people strolling up the middle of the road is stupid and selfish, whatever the law!!_HB wrote:Not so. The public highway is for everyone. You may use it in a motor car under licence. Obviously many don't realise that people on foot have absolute right of way which can lead to frustration and confusion.gillyjp wrote:They obviously don’t realise that the pavement is for pedestrians and the road is for cars.
Re: Bollards
Don't bollards just displace pavement parkers to a nearby location?
As I understand it, neither traffic wardens who monitor legitimate spaces nor PCSOs have a remit to approach pavement parkers or to issue tickets so seemingly there's no official deterrent.
There is clearly deliberate intent to park on the pavement, as otherwise a driver really should see an optician if he/she can't see where the kerb is.
As to pedestrians walking down the middle of a road, there is presumably a reason, e.g. bad street lighting, being a safer distance from people jumping out of doorways, overhanging tree branches, or icy pavements in winter. One thing I notice (on foot) is that some modern cars (elec combo ones?) are virtually silent so can't hear them approaching.
As I understand it, neither traffic wardens who monitor legitimate spaces nor PCSOs have a remit to approach pavement parkers or to issue tickets so seemingly there's no official deterrent.
There is clearly deliberate intent to park on the pavement, as otherwise a driver really should see an optician if he/she can't see where the kerb is.
As to pedestrians walking down the middle of a road, there is presumably a reason, e.g. bad street lighting, being a safer distance from people jumping out of doorways, overhanging tree branches, or icy pavements in winter. One thing I notice (on foot) is that some modern cars (elec combo ones?) are virtually silent so can't hear them approaching.
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monkeyarms
- Posts: 301
- Joined: 28 Jul 2015 14:54
- Location: Tredown
Re: Bollards
Nigel, whereabouts were you thinking of specifically?
I haven't lived round here long - coming up to 3 months - but I've done a fair old bit of tramping the streets in that time, what with nursery drop-offs to Bell Green and commutes to work via Penge East and Sydenham stations. I can't recall once having to walk around a car parked on a pavement.
Maybe there are some roads where this is a problem, but I haven't yet walked down them.
The one thing that I have noticed about Sydenham's streets as a newcomer, and felt pretty disgusted by, is the amount of dog poo. It's like being in the 1970s!
I haven't lived round here long - coming up to 3 months - but I've done a fair old bit of tramping the streets in that time, what with nursery drop-offs to Bell Green and commutes to work via Penge East and Sydenham stations. I can't recall once having to walk around a car parked on a pavement.
Maybe there are some roads where this is a problem, but I haven't yet walked down them.
The one thing that I have noticed about Sydenham's streets as a newcomer, and felt pretty disgusted by, is the amount of dog poo. It's like being in the 1970s!
Re: Bollards
So what of people who spent rather too much of their childhood keeping goal in the middle of the street?Pally wrote:However people strolling up the middle of the road is stupid and selfish, whatever the law!!
I presume you are writing as a vehicle driver which would make you quite terrifying in my eyes if I were to get in your way.
It was wonderful when, last year, a part of Lawrie Park Road was reclaimed by pedestrians for pleasure rather than have to peer out between parked cars and then sprint across to avoid speeding traffic, some of whom are unable to identify what a keep left sign is.
Car free Sundays once a month might begin to show us how much better our towns could be to live and play in. A realistic tax on car owners who sterilise our streets and pavements by long term parking might also alleviate the demand leading to the problem.
Stuart
Re: Bollards
Monkeyarms ,
A few of hotspots for pavement parking :
The stretch between Sydenham DIY and Blue Mountain
Corner of High Street and kenthouse rd ( on the left looking up hill )
Pavement opposite Cobbs roundabout ( bottom of Westwood Hill on left looking down hill )
The stretch between what was Cummin Up and Akeem Records ( barber shop )
In penge , the pavement next to funeral parlour corner of maple road
Outside Haji butchers penge high street .
All often have cars on them either parked or waiting . I really think a fixed penalty with No appeal would kill it dead .
A very good morning
Nigel
A few of hotspots for pavement parking :
The stretch between Sydenham DIY and Blue Mountain
Corner of High Street and kenthouse rd ( on the left looking up hill )
Pavement opposite Cobbs roundabout ( bottom of Westwood Hill on left looking down hill )
The stretch between what was Cummin Up and Akeem Records ( barber shop )
In penge , the pavement next to funeral parlour corner of maple road
Outside Haji butchers penge high street .
All often have cars on them either parked or waiting . I really think a fixed penalty with No appeal would kill it dead .
A very good morning
Nigel
Re: Bollards
Thanks Nigel, but despite lots of effort, it's not worth fighting the powers that be in Sydenham. You are right, Lewisham aren't particularly good, especially the Highways Department, at sourcing outside of what their red tape allows unfortunately, which means dull, unimaginative, generic street furniture and design.
It can be different, look at the space outside of Sydenham Library for how it can be done.
There are issues with parking on pavements, but it's an issue with enforcement or design. In Lower Sydenham it's a particular issue, but this was raised and ignored unfortunately.
I was once chased down the pavement outside of the Lovely Gallery by one idiot in a car that wanted to bypass the traffic.
Stuart, making cars more expensive just makes it harder for those already struggling with funds, if you want to change habits, make the alternative cheaper, easier and more convenient for the majority.
It can be different, look at the space outside of Sydenham Library for how it can be done.
There are issues with parking on pavements, but it's an issue with enforcement or design. In Lower Sydenham it's a particular issue, but this was raised and ignored unfortunately.
I was once chased down the pavement outside of the Lovely Gallery by one idiot in a car that wanted to bypass the traffic.
Stuart, making cars more expensive just makes it harder for those already struggling with funds, if you want to change habits, make the alternative cheaper, easier and more convenient for the majority.
Re: Bollards
What about the people who cannot afford or use cars?leenewham wrote:Stuart, making cars more expensive just makes it harder for those already struggling with funds, if you want to change habits, make the alternative cheaper, easier and more convenient for the majority.
Occupying and sterilising what should be a shared public resource for long periods without charge is a massive cost on the rest of the community. Not only in money, space but in danger, added congestion - and (I would think you would have agreed) making our streetscapes look pretty awful.
Compare this with, say, the rail travel where the users are being increasingly charged for the cost of the infrastructure. Car drivers get that for free (except on the M6 Toll and a few bridges). This grossly distorts the cost of travel encouraging cars at the expense of public and other means of transport hence creating the congestion which we all complain of.
My bid for the outstandingly worst collection of illegal pavement parking is Westwood Hill when Sydenham Girls are finishing (bollards would be dangerous there). A great example to the kids (together with their obscene comments if one tries tto politely remind them of it). Perhaps fines are not the way to go. Crushing might be the way to concentrate minds.
Stuart
Re: Bollards
Stuart
I agree - this not remotely about infrastructure , lack of choice or volume - it's selfish moronic a-holes doing what they choose .
The kind of people that do this probably don't use public transport , follow transport policy or subscribe to the Sustrans website . That's why I think it has to physical barriers or fining ( or crushing as in HB's Vilnius example).
When someone does get run over or steps under a lorry with a pram to avoid a pavement - parked car, I sincerely hope lewisham don't respond with a cycle lane or reduced gym membership .
A very good afternoon
Nigel
I agree - this not remotely about infrastructure , lack of choice or volume - it's selfish moronic a-holes doing what they choose .
The kind of people that do this probably don't use public transport , follow transport policy or subscribe to the Sustrans website . That's why I think it has to physical barriers or fining ( or crushing as in HB's Vilnius example).
When someone does get run over or steps under a lorry with a pram to avoid a pavement - parked car, I sincerely hope lewisham don't respond with a cycle lane or reduced gym membership .
A very good afternoon
Nigel
Re: Bollards
Nigel,
I didn't see you at the St Bart's concert last night. Some enjoyable music raising money for the Musicians Benevolent Society (now renamed into something more trendy and forgettable). You would have heard the conductor's story of how he benefited from the charity when incapacitated for three months by - colliding on his bicycle with a BOLLARD BENT BY A VEHICLE!
I too suffered a head injury when I tripped, fell and hit one. I had to carefully navigate around the remains of one destroyed in Anerley yesterday. So they are not without hazard themselves.
Bollards really just admit is that law enforcement and society has failed. Well, there is practically no enforcement in most of Sydenham. Our very own parking attendant (shared at least with Forest Hill) has a very precise set of targets he visits on his Vespa. Avoid those and you can pretty much do what you like. Worse is that it isn't just the law but normal usually law abiding people take a holiday with their consciences when they need to park their steed as closely, or even more closely, to their home, school or shop.
We need to engineer an attitude change as well as equip Mayor Bull with a T-34.
Stuart
I didn't see you at the St Bart's concert last night. Some enjoyable music raising money for the Musicians Benevolent Society (now renamed into something more trendy and forgettable). You would have heard the conductor's story of how he benefited from the charity when incapacitated for three months by - colliding on his bicycle with a BOLLARD BENT BY A VEHICLE!
I too suffered a head injury when I tripped, fell and hit one. I had to carefully navigate around the remains of one destroyed in Anerley yesterday. So they are not without hazard themselves.
Bollards really just admit is that law enforcement and society has failed. Well, there is practically no enforcement in most of Sydenham. Our very own parking attendant (shared at least with Forest Hill) has a very precise set of targets he visits on his Vespa. Avoid those and you can pretty much do what you like. Worse is that it isn't just the law but normal usually law abiding people take a holiday with their consciences when they need to park their steed as closely, or even more closely, to their home, school or shop.
We need to engineer an attitude change as well as equip Mayor Bull with a T-34.
Stuart
Re: Bollards
I was one of those people. When I first came to London I was earning 5k a year in 1992. I was sleeping on people floors as I couldn't afford somewhere to live (essentially I was homeless). I was able to stay with some friends of my family to enable me to live in London.stuart wrote:leenewham wrote: What about the people who cannot afford or use cars?
Stuart
I wanted a car though just for occasional use at weekends as I'd always wanted a classic. I eventually bought an MGB after saving up for 5 years (and a few pay rises). Then the local council introduced parking charges. I couldn't afford them, but luckily a friend offered his garage about 5 miles from where I lived. Eventually I gave up and sold the car.
We now have a car, which we bought after being let down so much on public transport and especially with having a kid so we could make the most of the weekend and being able to make the nursery run in 15 minutes there and back instead of 1 hour, twice a day.
If I visit my parents in Devon, it's essential we have a car, trains don't go within 15 miles of them. getting around for days out when we are there isn't easy, plus we need a car seat.
I used to have a bike, but I felt unsafe on London roads and hated cycling here, plus with a very young son, it's something I stopped doing.
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_HB
Re: Bollards
^^^^ This is the tragedy of an utterly failed transport policy in this city. In lee's situation, buying and running a car - even if mainly for 15 min nursery trips - is the rational and sensible thing to do. And no one is serious about challenging this status quo. A few bollards here and there doesn't cut it.
Re: Bollards
Yes - lets say I lived near Lee and had to take kids to school in the Catford area. If I was Dutch I would probably do it this way:
Lovely isn't it and you would have greenery all around you just the same and no traffic queues along the wonderful Waterlink Way that starts behind Sainsburys. You'd be there and back faster and could cancel your gym membership. For those on a budget it would be a godsend.
Just one little problem. I'm an experienced and confident cyclist but would I like to take that around the Bell Green gyratory to get onto the Waterlink? Well no. That says it all. We force ourselves to use the car. The Dutch were forced to do it too. Until enough of them said ENOUGH!
And now you can avoid the car there. Saying it is not possible here is the only reason it is impossible. Lee, you are just not angry enough. Don't justify doing something I think you really know you shouldn't. We should be making the BGG the icon of what must go. We need to get SydSoc more worried about this than pubs.
Stuart
Lovely isn't it and you would have greenery all around you just the same and no traffic queues along the wonderful Waterlink Way that starts behind Sainsburys. You'd be there and back faster and could cancel your gym membership. For those on a budget it would be a godsend.
Just one little problem. I'm an experienced and confident cyclist but would I like to take that around the Bell Green gyratory to get onto the Waterlink? Well no. That says it all. We force ourselves to use the car. The Dutch were forced to do it too. Until enough of them said ENOUGH!
And now you can avoid the car there. Saying it is not possible here is the only reason it is impossible. Lee, you are just not angry enough. Don't justify doing something I think you really know you shouldn't. We should be making the BGG the icon of what must go. We need to get SydSoc more worried about this than pubs.
Stuart
Re: Bollards
I'm not saying it's impossible.
I'd love the space to store one of those bikes (and be able to afford one, they are incredibly expensive) and be able to cycle without another cyclist swearing at me for not going fast enough, and oh! better weather.
As things stand, with my home, being able to drive into the countryside at weekends and our 4 year old, at present, the best solution where I Iive is my car (a second hand hybrid) for my circumstance.
Sometimes I use my car, sometimes I walk, sometimes I use the Underground, sometimes I go somewhere by train, sometimes I use an aeroplane, sometimes I go by boat or ferry depending on the journey I need to make.
Real change comes when something comes along that is better. The Dutch made cycling better in their very flat country.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23587916
If I lived there I'd probably have one of those bikes and take my son to nursery like that.
But I don't.
How about letting people cycle on pavements if they ride a dutch bike with a bell and don a bit of tweed, anyone in lycra and a racing bike have to go on the roads? I'd probably be persuaded to cycle more in that case.
I'd love the space to store one of those bikes (and be able to afford one, they are incredibly expensive) and be able to cycle without another cyclist swearing at me for not going fast enough, and oh! better weather.
As things stand, with my home, being able to drive into the countryside at weekends and our 4 year old, at present, the best solution where I Iive is my car (a second hand hybrid) for my circumstance.
Sometimes I use my car, sometimes I walk, sometimes I use the Underground, sometimes I go somewhere by train, sometimes I use an aeroplane, sometimes I go by boat or ferry depending on the journey I need to make.
Real change comes when something comes along that is better. The Dutch made cycling better in their very flat country.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23587916
If I lived there I'd probably have one of those bikes and take my son to nursery like that.
But I don't.
How about letting people cycle on pavements if they ride a dutch bike with a bell and don a bit of tweed, anyone in lycra and a racing bike have to go on the roads? I'd probably be persuaded to cycle more in that case.
Re: Bollards
A Brompton, with trailer, takes very little space. Bikes expensive? What did your Picasso/Berlingo cost and what your insurance/maintenence bill per annum? Do you think that couple in the photograph would swear and scalp you? I think its drier and warmer in Sydenham than Amsterdam.leenewham wrote:I'd love the space to store one of those bikes (and be able to afford one, they are incredibly expensive) and be able to cycle without another cyclist swearing at me for not going fast enough, and oh! better weather.
But here the roads around Bell Green are mayhem when moving and frustrating when they are not. Tempers flare, heart rates escalate. And as you point out cyclists dress and act like they taking part in a guerilla war - because they are. Do we go on with this or, like the Dutch, change it? Making excuses why you can't is just the problem.
I'm not decrying cars. They are great where they are uniquely beneficial. I've got a 20 year old Micra that runs just fine and is reasonably economic for a car because it doesn't have to run that often. I could probably do without it and hire one when I really needed it. That's the difference - when you realise that trip is really going to cost you £20 you may find it more economical to use other means.
Which may be cheaper and faster if we relieve our cities of congestion, pollution and frustration.
Stuart