Mount [Ash] Villas

[marymck]

I'm trying to find out information and if possible pictures of Mount Villas aka Mount Ash Villas. Please can anyone out there help me?

These are two terraces each of four houses either side of the end of Mount Ash Road where it joins Kirkdale (previously Sydenham Hill Road/Sydenham Common).

In 1868, James Dines, of 1 Clyde Place, Forest Hill, submitted a Planning Application to build 67 houses: Mount Ash Road + these 8.

The application appears to have been turned down on the grounds that James Dines hadn't applied for permission to build the roadway.

I'm searching at the LMA to see if they have anything on this and I'm also going to have another look at the Lewisham local studies centre, but I'm hoping someone out there might know something.

So far I've not found a repeat of the Planning Application (which was probably scaled down somewhat as the final tally of built houses was 57). It must have happened fairly quickly though, because the 1871 census shows James Dines living at No. 2 Mount Ash Road and recorded as a builder employing 10 men. The census also shows Nos. 1-4 Mount Villas - that is, the terrace south of Mount Ash Road.

Nos. 5-8 Mount Villas are evident on a map of 1875. However, this block may have been known as Mount Ash Villas at that time.

1-8 Mount Villas, Sydenham Hill Road now known as 30-44 (even Nos. only!) Kirkdale.

Fingers crossed!!

[Falkor]

If I've understood correctly, the villas you are interested in are technically in upper Kirkdale as opposed to Mount Ash Road or Mount Gardens?

As I know, there are some brick buildings in Kirkdale, fronting onto the road at an angle (one is painted green in certain parts of the exterior), but these date from before the 1840s (probably 1820s). There was a postcard on Ebay that showed them recently (I think Steve won it).

The only other pictures for this area that I've come across are Mount Gardens (various old views at the LMA) + one view of Mount Ash Road published in one of the John Coulter/John Seaman books + entrance to Charlecote Grove (LMA). There is also a picture of Seymour Lodge in Sydenham and Forest Hill Past (some old mansion that stood south of Elliot Lodge). I've not seen any other stuff at Lewisham Local Studies....

What is the significance of the planning application you are seeking?

[Falkor]

These must be the buildings you're referring to:




One of those really old houses I mentioned is right of this photo:

I spoke to the owner and he told me how old it was + it's on the 1843 map!

[Steve Grindlay]

Falkor, it's none of those houses. These are the two terraces marymck refers to.
36-30 Kirkdale:


44-38 Kirkdale:


marymck, I have an Abstract of Title that refers to this site, on 31 pages of closely written vellum. It gives the history of the site from 1817, when it was enclosed, until 1870. I haven't studied in detail yet, but I will now give some thought to transcribing it, but it will take some weeks. I will see what I can do...

By the way, I'm sure the issues over the road in Mount Gardens was covered in the local press; local studies should be able to help with that.

[marymck]

Thanks everyone for your help and interest.

Very exciting about the Abstract of Title, Steve. How did you come by it? I will be really on tenterhooks till you get a chance to transcribe it.

Yes the pictures Steve posted are Mount Villas. Mine is the yellow house (shortly to be painted blue!)

We moved here about five years ago and I've been meaning to look into the history of the site ever since, but Life keeps getting in the way!

A couple of weeks ago I tried to obtain a copy of our Deeds from the Building Society only to find they don't exist any more! It seems the Building Societies don't want them as all they keep nowadays is an electronic copy of the Title Charge. I'm now faced with trying to trace back through conveyancers and solicitors in the hope of finding what happened to the records.

The land registry haven't been able to supply anything historic at all.

What's really sad now is that a Property Developer is planning to convert No. 36 into a five storey block of flats! He's described it as "mid-20th century" and it seems as though the fact of it being an 1870s house in a Conservation Area doesn't count for much.

Today's the last day to let the Council know if anyone has an opinion on that. If you wanted to you'd need to e-mail: Planning@lewisham.gov.uk, quote DC/07/67701 & include your name and address.

[marymck]

Falkor: the house with the green paint trim in your photo is indeed very old. John Coulter told me he thinks it's Omega Cottage, probably the first house to be built on the Common.

Sadly No. 26 Kirkdale (as it's now known) is also about undergo building work. It too is being converted to a block of flats. Sadly I didn't find out about that one in time to object.

It too is in the Sydenham Hill/Kirkdale Conservation Area.

[marymck]

Just noticed that on my last posting I said No. 26 Kirkdale was going to be converted to flats. In fact that was a typo: I meant No. 24. No. 24 is that house that was probably the original Omega Cottage.

[Steve Grindlay]

... John Coulter told me he thinks it's Omega Cottage, probably the first house to be built on the Common

I don't often disagree with John, but I'm fairly sure that 24 Kirkdale was Milverton (not Omega) Lodge. Indeed, in Sydenham & Forest Hill Past John refers to three houses "...dated from the early 1820s. Of these, the one still standing is Milverton Lodge, no. 24". Omega Lodge was next door, no. 22, where there is now a small block of modern flats.

This is another view of 24 Kirkdale:


Milverton Lodge was originally a much simpler building; the two extensions at the side and possibly also the porch were not original and I suspect the bow window was also an addition. However, Milverton Lodge is certainly important as probably the oldest largely intact brick building in Upper Sydenham.

[marymck]

Does anyone know when Omega Cottage demolished? Or was it just renamed Milverton Lodge?

I can see Omega Cottage in notes I made from the 1862, 1867, 1872 & 1876 street directories, but not Milverton Lodge. (But I'm looking at my notes & maybe they're incomplete?) A Miss Smith lived there.

From the 1894 street directory I've noted:

"Shield, Wm - Kirklynton
Galloway, Jn - Milverton Lodge
Jenner, R - Mount Pleasant"

I believe Mount Pleasant to be No. 28 Kirkdale.

Anyway, whatever it was called No. 24 is a lovely house. Enjoy it while you can before it's "developed" beyond recognition!

[marymck]

Postscript: Looking at an 1894 map, I think Kirklynton (or Kirk Lynton) may be where Rose Court now stands. So maybe Omega Cottage was renamed Kirk Lynton?

[Steve Grindlay]

Does anyone know when Omega Cottage demolished? Or was it just renamed Milverton Lodge?

I can see Omega Cottage in notes I made from the 1862, 1867, 1872 & 1876 street directories, but not Milverton Lodge. (But I'm looking at my notes & maybe they're incomplete?) A Miss Smith lived there.

From the 1894 street directory I've noted:

"Shield, Wm - Kirklynton
Galloway, Jn - Milverton Lodge
Jenner, R - Mount Pleasant"

I believe Mount Pleasant to be No. 28 Kirkdale.

Anyway, whatever it was called No. 24 is a lovely house. Enjoy it while you can before it's "developed" beyond recognition!

I can say with some certainty that:
No.22 was called Omega Cottage from at least 1862 until 1894
No.24 was called Milverton Lodge from before 1871 until at least 1925
No.26 was built about 1899
No.28 was called Clifton Cottage from at least 1853 until 1870s

Omega Cottage became Kirklynton from 1894 until at least 1925
Clifton Cottage became Mount Pleasant during the 1870s until at least 1925

Omega Cottage appears to have survived the war so I imagine it was demolished, with so much else, during the 1960s-70s.

[marymck]

Thanks for clearing that up, Steve.

[Brannan]

Here's another picture of a house on Kirkdale, no. 53 to be precise. My great grandparents lived here in the 1920s: Henry Joseph Huntley was an insurance broker, hence the sign.
I would be grateful if anyone could tell me whether this house is still there - unlikely but you never know ...

[Brannan]

53 Kirkdale (see previous message)

[Brannan]

Thanks to Mary's explanations about the renumbering on Kirkdale, I've just found my ancestor's house on Google - there are a few similar houses next to it in the same style.