I am researching my family tree and have found my great great grandfather living at 27 Dallas road in 1881, William Hawkes, retired police constable.
Also at crowhurst Cottages No 3. does anyone know where this is ?
The other address for him and a family of the name of Gardiner living at 6 Springfield, Wells Rd Sydenham.
I would be greatful for any information/photos ect of the area around the time of 1871/81
The Gardiners, my Grandmothers family all lived in and around Edney St and Springfield Gardens, Springfield Wells Rd at least up to 1918/20.
Are these addresses near each other?
Searching Dallas Rd
Here's the area in question:
Before 1812, most of the area was common land known as Westwood or Sydenham Common, and so no houses were allowed to be built until the enclosure act was commissioned.
In the area that was to become Springfield/Dallas Road, there was only fields at this time. The only buildings on the common--cottages to accommodate drinkers of the medicinal wells, discovered in 1640s--were left of the area in question.
By 1843, Springfield Road had been laid and buildings have started to appear, but not yet Dallas Road.
Wells Place: this may have ended life, in part or rebuilt, as Wells Terrace (cottages to the right of the photo below).
Prospect Place: part of these buildings blocked what would soon become the entrance to Dallas Road, hence were soon demolished. What remained of the cottages was rebuilt as Wells Road shops on each corner of Dallas Road:
back of Wells Road shops from Springfield Rise
Building (1): I don't know what this building was, but it had a distinctive chimney, and was soon replaced by the Beehive pub (no picture), before that got replaced by the Duke pub (recently demolished). The original building and Prospect Place can be made out in an 1830s painting:
http://static.flickr.com/105/315009780_14fc21d477_o.jpg
Red (05) = Blue (05)
Red (06) = Blue (07)
Red (07) = Blue (08 )
Red (08 )= Blue (10)
Red (09) = Blue (11)
Red (10) = Blue (12)
Building (2): this terrace may have formed the earliest buildings that would soon line the eastern side of Edney Street, unless of course they were rebuilt when that road was laid. See them for yourself in this photo below:
13 Springfield Road: the garden of my first Sydenham house was laid on the site of this weather-boarded cottage.
Building (3): this was rebuilt as the headquarters for the Springfield Brewery and then for the generating station.
Building (3): these were the buildings (or rebuildings) seen left of the photo below.
Cottages at the top of Springfield: seen right of the photo above! Also seen in photo below:
Springfield Gardens:
Last photo shows Building (3) to the left, generating station ahead, and Springfield Gardens to the right.
You can check out this topic for more pictures of the area:
http://forum.sydenham.org.uk/viewtopic. ... e20f02de4b
Come 1860s-1890s, a lot of new buildings had been built, including Dallas Road and Edney Street. Unfortunately, only one side of Dallas Road can properly be seen from old photos of the area; see the following topic for samples:
http://forum.sydenham.org.uk/viewtopic. ... e20f02de4b
Now the whole area including Springfield, Dallas Road, and the middle of Wells Park Road is totally unrecogniseable having been completely transformed in the late 1950s. The Duke pub was the only old building to survive, but now even this has been demolished just a couple of months ago. Edney Street was completely wiped off the map--no longer in existence as even a road.
If you went for a walk around Springfield or Dallas Road today, you can not touch or see anything that your ancestors could!
Before 1812, most of the area was common land known as Westwood or Sydenham Common, and so no houses were allowed to be built until the enclosure act was commissioned.
In the area that was to become Springfield/Dallas Road, there was only fields at this time. The only buildings on the common--cottages to accommodate drinkers of the medicinal wells, discovered in 1640s--were left of the area in question.
By 1843, Springfield Road had been laid and buildings have started to appear, but not yet Dallas Road.
Wells Place: this may have ended life, in part or rebuilt, as Wells Terrace (cottages to the right of the photo below).
Prospect Place: part of these buildings blocked what would soon become the entrance to Dallas Road, hence were soon demolished. What remained of the cottages was rebuilt as Wells Road shops on each corner of Dallas Road:
back of Wells Road shops from Springfield Rise
Building (1): I don't know what this building was, but it had a distinctive chimney, and was soon replaced by the Beehive pub (no picture), before that got replaced by the Duke pub (recently demolished). The original building and Prospect Place can be made out in an 1830s painting:
http://static.flickr.com/105/315009780_14fc21d477_o.jpg
Red (05) = Blue (05)
Red (06) = Blue (07)
Red (07) = Blue (08 )
Red (08 )= Blue (10)
Red (09) = Blue (11)
Red (10) = Blue (12)
Building (2): this terrace may have formed the earliest buildings that would soon line the eastern side of Edney Street, unless of course they were rebuilt when that road was laid. See them for yourself in this photo below:
13 Springfield Road: the garden of my first Sydenham house was laid on the site of this weather-boarded cottage.
Building (3): this was rebuilt as the headquarters for the Springfield Brewery and then for the generating station.
Building (3): these were the buildings (or rebuildings) seen left of the photo below.
Cottages at the top of Springfield: seen right of the photo above! Also seen in photo below:
Springfield Gardens:
Last photo shows Building (3) to the left, generating station ahead, and Springfield Gardens to the right.
You can check out this topic for more pictures of the area:
http://forum.sydenham.org.uk/viewtopic. ... e20f02de4b
Come 1860s-1890s, a lot of new buildings had been built, including Dallas Road and Edney Street. Unfortunately, only one side of Dallas Road can properly be seen from old photos of the area; see the following topic for samples:
http://forum.sydenham.org.uk/viewtopic. ... e20f02de4b
Now the whole area including Springfield, Dallas Road, and the middle of Wells Park Road is totally unrecogniseable having been completely transformed in the late 1950s. The Duke pub was the only old building to survive, but now even this has been demolished just a couple of months ago. Edney Street was completely wiped off the map--no longer in existence as even a road.
If you went for a walk around Springfield or Dallas Road today, you can not touch or see anything that your ancestors could!
Falkor,
Very much obliged for the info and photos, I haven't visited the area since the early 60's when my great aunt lived in No 4 Anerley Rd opp the school.
many thanks for the photos as well. When I find out more I will contact the forum.
Some members of the Gardiner family worked in a dairy as milk carriers was the dairy near by or in the area?
Also my great grandmother worked as a Laundress in the area around 1891, she was 23.
Very much obliged for the info and photos, I haven't visited the area since the early 60's when my great aunt lived in No 4 Anerley Rd opp the school.
many thanks for the photos as well. When I find out more I will contact the forum.
Some members of the Gardiner family worked in a dairy as milk carriers was the dairy near by or in the area?
Also my great grandmother worked as a Laundress in the area around 1891, she was 23.
I heard there was a Dairy in Willow Walk/Way, and a Laundrette in Kirkdale (the part known as the High Street at the time), but that was in the 1950s. Whether the same type of businesses were in operation in the same places as early as late 19C I don't know. Steve Grindlay is the main man for keeping track of shops etc.
I think the laundry Squibbs is referring to maybe the Invicta Laundry which was near the Woodman pub and was on the site, I think, of where the Costcutter shop now is. My Grandmother and her sisters worked there in the early 1900s and she told me it was a big employer for the area, doing the fancy linen and clothes of the wealthy people on Sydenham Hill. She worked there, on & off until the 1930's.
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Steve Grindlay
- Posts: 606
- Joined: 4 Oct 2004 05:07
- Location: Upper Sydenham
Re: Searching Dallas Rd
Squib, Crowhurst Cottages, where William Hawkes and his family lived in 1871, were in Beadnell Road, called West Road during the 1870s, in Forest Hill. My reading of the census suggests he actually lived at no.2 Crowhurst Cottages, which would have been the middle of the three cottages circled in black near the top of this 1914 map:Squibs wrote:I am researching my family tree and have found my great great grandfather living at 27 Dallas road in 1881, William Hawkes, retired police constable.
Also at crowhurst Cottages No 3. does anyone know where this is ?
The other address for him and a family of the name of Gardiner living at 6 Springfield, Wells Rd Sydenham.
The Gardiners, my Grandmothers family all lived in and around Edney St and Springfield Gardens, Springfield Wells Rd at least up to 1918/20.
Are these addresses near each other?
The cottages were demolished during the early 1970s, when most of the buildings in Dalmain Road, Malham Road and the east side of Beadnell Road were replaced by an industrial estate.
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FergussonFamily
- Posts: 51
- Joined: 10 Mar 2008 20:16
- Location: Anerley
Hawkes/ Gardiners
Squibs,
This is my wife's family! (I am just the family historian.) I'm not sure how you are related to her, but it seems pretty close.
These photos of Dallas Street are great. I just happened to find this site with a google search, though we actually live in Anerley.
I have seen William Hawkes (my wife's GG Grandfather) police record at TNA:
Height: 5 feet 7 inches
Hair: Light Brown
Complexion: Fresh
No distinguishing marks
William came from Long Crendon, and his wife Mary Ann Hobbs came from Pucklechurch, Gloucestershire.
1841 - High Street, Long Crendon, Buckinghamshire, England
Joined the Metropolitan Police Force at Wandsworth on 02 Jul 1855, aged 22. Warrant No. 33801.
1861 - 14, Point Pleasant, Wandsworth.
Served as a Constable in 'V' Division (Wandsworth) until 1864 Promoted to Sergeant and reduced 7th April 1868 in same Division. (Division also covered Kingston, and Battersea until 1865 when the new Clapham "W" Division was established.)
Transferred to 'P' Division (Peckham) 8th April 1868 and remained as a Constable until left Police Force on 02 Jan 1880 aged 46 as PC 353 'P' Division (covered Lambeth, Camberwell, Brixton and part of Streatham) aged 46, on grounds of ill-health due to 'Rheumatism.
24 years service.
Certificate No.2 :- 'Good' conduct.
Pension of £52 per annum. Increased to £53.14s. 8d. per annum (Home office letter of 22 Mar 1880. MEPO 21/15 (1879-1881) Pension No. 5134
1871 - 2 Crowhurst Cottages, Lewisham.
1880 - 6, Springfield, Wells Road, Sydenham, Kent
1881 - 27, Dallas Road, Upper Sydenham, Kent
1890 - 27, Dallas Road, Upper Sydenham, Kent
1891 - 27, Dallas Road, Upper Sydenham, Kent
If you have any photos of William Hawkes then the Metropolitan Police Museum would be interested in copies. Sadly, we don't.
William's 5th son, William, and Laurina Gardiner, are my wife's Great Grandparents. This William was a Milk Carrier as were other brothers. The Census shows a nearby Dairy.
1871 - 2, Crowhurst Cottages, Lewisham.
1881 - 27, Dallas Road, Upper Sydenham, Kent
1890 - 27, Dallas Road, Upper Sydenham, Kent.
1891 - 51, Bradford Road, Sydenham.
Kelly's London Suburban directory shows the Hawkes had moved from Dallas Road before 1898. There is a William Hawkes at 32, Neville Street Croydon in 1894.
1901 - 85 Woodland Rd., Upper Norwood, London.
Their daughter, Elsie Lillian Laurine Hawkes, married William Melbourne Baker.
Is there a way to upload photos to this site from my PC? Or can you only link from a url?
I have a family bible frontspiece with the dates and times of births of Hawkes/Gardiners.
The Gardiner's originally come from Pulham, St Mary Virgin, Depwade, Norfolk.
I also have some photos of the Gardiners on the beach in Lowestoft and in a Charabang they used to take there from SE London. I'd like to be able to identify all the people in the photos.
David Fergusson
This is my wife's family! (I am just the family historian.) I'm not sure how you are related to her, but it seems pretty close.
These photos of Dallas Street are great. I just happened to find this site with a google search, though we actually live in Anerley.
I have seen William Hawkes (my wife's GG Grandfather) police record at TNA:
Height: 5 feet 7 inches
Hair: Light Brown
Complexion: Fresh
No distinguishing marks
William came from Long Crendon, and his wife Mary Ann Hobbs came from Pucklechurch, Gloucestershire.
1841 - High Street, Long Crendon, Buckinghamshire, England
Joined the Metropolitan Police Force at Wandsworth on 02 Jul 1855, aged 22. Warrant No. 33801.
1861 - 14, Point Pleasant, Wandsworth.
Served as a Constable in 'V' Division (Wandsworth) until 1864 Promoted to Sergeant and reduced 7th April 1868 in same Division. (Division also covered Kingston, and Battersea until 1865 when the new Clapham "W" Division was established.)
Transferred to 'P' Division (Peckham) 8th April 1868 and remained as a Constable until left Police Force on 02 Jan 1880 aged 46 as PC 353 'P' Division (covered Lambeth, Camberwell, Brixton and part of Streatham) aged 46, on grounds of ill-health due to 'Rheumatism.
24 years service.
Certificate No.2 :- 'Good' conduct.
Pension of £52 per annum. Increased to £53.14s. 8d. per annum (Home office letter of 22 Mar 1880. MEPO 21/15 (1879-1881) Pension No. 5134
1871 - 2 Crowhurst Cottages, Lewisham.
1880 - 6, Springfield, Wells Road, Sydenham, Kent
1881 - 27, Dallas Road, Upper Sydenham, Kent
1890 - 27, Dallas Road, Upper Sydenham, Kent
1891 - 27, Dallas Road, Upper Sydenham, Kent
If you have any photos of William Hawkes then the Metropolitan Police Museum would be interested in copies. Sadly, we don't.
William's 5th son, William, and Laurina Gardiner, are my wife's Great Grandparents. This William was a Milk Carrier as were other brothers. The Census shows a nearby Dairy.
1871 - 2, Crowhurst Cottages, Lewisham.
1881 - 27, Dallas Road, Upper Sydenham, Kent
1890 - 27, Dallas Road, Upper Sydenham, Kent.
1891 - 51, Bradford Road, Sydenham.
Kelly's London Suburban directory shows the Hawkes had moved from Dallas Road before 1898. There is a William Hawkes at 32, Neville Street Croydon in 1894.
1901 - 85 Woodland Rd., Upper Norwood, London.
Their daughter, Elsie Lillian Laurine Hawkes, married William Melbourne Baker.
Is there a way to upload photos to this site from my PC? Or can you only link from a url?
I have a family bible frontspiece with the dates and times of births of Hawkes/Gardiners.
The Gardiner's originally come from Pulham, St Mary Virgin, Depwade, Norfolk.
I also have some photos of the Gardiners on the beach in Lowestoft and in a Charabang they used to take there from SE London. I'd like to be able to identify all the people in the photos.
David Fergusson
Last edited by FergussonFamily on 10 Mar 2008 23:30, edited 1 time in total.
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FergussonFamily
- Posts: 51
- Joined: 10 Mar 2008 20:16
- Location: Anerley
Elsie Lillian Laurine Hawkes née Gardiner
Elsie Lillian Laurine Hawkes née Gardiner
Front page torn from a bible
The Gardiner Family going on holiday
The Gardiner Family going on holiday
Lowestoft - haven't worked out the date (Sep 1936?)
The last one is of my wife's mother with Elsie Lillian Laurine and William Melbourne.
I've no idea who the other people are if you can help.
I thought Elsie Lillian was an only child, but I'm guessing now that you are descended from a brother or sister.
Elsie Lillian Laurine Hawkes née Gardiner
Front page torn from a bible
The Gardiner Family going on holiday
The Gardiner Family going on holiday
Lowestoft - haven't worked out the date (Sep 1936?)
The last one is of my wife's mother with Elsie Lillian Laurine and William Melbourne.
I've no idea who the other people are if you can help.
I thought Elsie Lillian was an only child, but I'm guessing now that you are descended from a brother or sister.
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FergussonFamily
- Posts: 51
- Joined: 10 Mar 2008 20:16
- Location: Anerley
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maureen barrett
- Posts: 29
- Joined: 11 Aug 2010 13:02
- Location: hampshire
Re: Searching Dallas Rd
I was fascinated to read the message from 'squibs' regarding his gt gt grandfather a retired police constable living at 27 Dallas Road.On the 1881 Census he is shown as such.The remarkable thing is that my gt grandfather Kossuth Moorlen is also shown on this page.He was then a serving Police Constable living at 24 Dallas Road.I have pictures of him in uniform of him outside Sydenham Police station and I am sure that they would have known each other.
My family lived in the Wells Park Road community for 4 generations before it was obliterated by Lewisham council.Kossuth lived in Rowland grove, and Dallas Road before moving to Carlton terrace in Sydenham Park.His daughter Alice had a confectioners at no 99 Wells Park Road, and his daughter Kate married to Horace Myerson lived at no 11 Bradford Road.Kates daughter Betty at no5 Bradford, Gladys at 7 Bradford, Mollie at 33 Bradford, Ruth at No 3 Coombe and Jean at 32 Dallas.Mollie later moved to Taylors Lane as the houses there were not demolished.
I lived at 83 Wells Park road next to Walls's confectioners and an Aunt still lives in Wells Road .
I have loved reading of peoples recollections of the lovely community we had there.I know of no-one who was willing to leave(despite the lack of a bathroom and outside toilet which could have been added in a refurbishment program)
I love the pictures, showing our walk to school route through Edney Street to the gate of Kelvin Grove school.I also remember the Dairy in Willow Walk as I passed that going to the Grammar School opposite the Police Station, and the Invicta Laundry at the Woodman, the smell of bacon flanks curing in Bouchers storespost office too.
How can I get pictures of the shops in Wells Park road shown below Shepherds newsagents?
Maureen Barrett(nee Myles)
My family lived in the Wells Park Road community for 4 generations before it was obliterated by Lewisham council.Kossuth lived in Rowland grove, and Dallas Road before moving to Carlton terrace in Sydenham Park.His daughter Alice had a confectioners at no 99 Wells Park Road, and his daughter Kate married to Horace Myerson lived at no 11 Bradford Road.Kates daughter Betty at no5 Bradford, Gladys at 7 Bradford, Mollie at 33 Bradford, Ruth at No 3 Coombe and Jean at 32 Dallas.Mollie later moved to Taylors Lane as the houses there were not demolished.
I lived at 83 Wells Park road next to Walls's confectioners and an Aunt still lives in Wells Road .
I have loved reading of peoples recollections of the lovely community we had there.I know of no-one who was willing to leave(despite the lack of a bathroom and outside toilet which could have been added in a refurbishment program)
I love the pictures, showing our walk to school route through Edney Street to the gate of Kelvin Grove school.I also remember the Dairy in Willow Walk as I passed that going to the Grammar School opposite the Police Station, and the Invicta Laundry at the Woodman, the smell of bacon flanks curing in Bouchers storespost office too.
How can I get pictures of the shops in Wells Park road shown below Shepherds newsagents?
Maureen Barrett(nee Myles)
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maureen barrett
- Posts: 29
- Joined: 11 Aug 2010 13:02
- Location: hampshire
Re: Searching Dallas Rd
Hello there, I have posted a general reply after reading your message which I know was posted ages ago, but I have just seen.However my gt grandfather was also a policeman at Dallas Road(no.24) and must have known your gt grandfather.They both appear on the same census return.I have photos of Kossuth moorlen outside Sydenham Police Station with colleagues in uniform if you would like a copy.Regards Maureen
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FergussonFamily
- Posts: 51
- Joined: 10 Mar 2008 20:16
- Location: Anerley
Re: Searching Dallas Rd
Sorry, I've been on holiday. I would like to see the photos. Can't you post them here?
The two families must have known each other well. I can't help you with the pictures and it is my wife's family not mine (I'm just the family historian) but several of them were also employed at the dairy.
"before it was obliterated by Lewisham council" - sadly that happened all over the country in the name of progress. Some of those high rise blocks won awards, the architects made millions, and now many are either already demolished or worse than the Victorian slums they were meant to replace. With respect, that Wells Park/Sydenham Hill estate doesn't look too bad.
The two families must have known each other well. I can't help you with the pictures and it is my wife's family not mine (I'm just the family historian) but several of them were also employed at the dairy.
"before it was obliterated by Lewisham council" - sadly that happened all over the country in the name of progress. Some of those high rise blocks won awards, the architects made millions, and now many are either already demolished or worse than the Victorian slums they were meant to replace. With respect, that Wells Park/Sydenham Hill estate doesn't look too bad.
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maureen barrett
- Posts: 29
- Joined: 11 Aug 2010 13:02
- Location: hampshire
Re: Searching Dallas Rd
Hello there, I am a novice on the forum sadly I do not know how to post a photo on the site.
I agree with you that the estate at the top of Sydenham Hill opposite the park stands up quite well against many.It was sad to see our open spaces go, but for the most part these flats were built on land which was used for recreation and few houses would have been demolished to build there.
The buildings further down which replaced those demolished along Wells Park Road do not stand up nearly as well .
There was once a vibrant community with shops on either side and the houses and flats built to replace Dallas, Springfield ,Rowland grove and particularly Bradford Road , Prospect and Coombe Road do not compare with what was there in my view.
Now that The Duke of Edinburgh Public house has been demolished it is even more apparent that no care has been taken in harmonious building, with a large overbearing building -not set back from the road- looming over nearby bungalows and their gardens.
Of COURSE I am biased in my view, because I loved it as it was.
Photos of the area when it was being closed down give the impression of a derelict slum, which it was not.The people took pride in their homes and gardens growing veg and keeping chickens.It was a wonderful safe, neighbourly environment to grow up in.
I suppose you had to be there then to appreciate what was lost .
Maureen Barrett(nee Myles)
I agree with you that the estate at the top of Sydenham Hill opposite the park stands up quite well against many.It was sad to see our open spaces go, but for the most part these flats were built on land which was used for recreation and few houses would have been demolished to build there.
The buildings further down which replaced those demolished along Wells Park Road do not stand up nearly as well .
There was once a vibrant community with shops on either side and the houses and flats built to replace Dallas, Springfield ,Rowland grove and particularly Bradford Road , Prospect and Coombe Road do not compare with what was there in my view.
Now that The Duke of Edinburgh Public house has been demolished it is even more apparent that no care has been taken in harmonious building, with a large overbearing building -not set back from the road- looming over nearby bungalows and their gardens.
Of COURSE I am biased in my view, because I loved it as it was.
Photos of the area when it was being closed down give the impression of a derelict slum, which it was not.The people took pride in their homes and gardens growing veg and keeping chickens.It was a wonderful safe, neighbourly environment to grow up in.
I suppose you had to be there then to appreciate what was lost .
Maureen Barrett(nee Myles)