Speed cameras on Sydenham Hill

[Tim Lund]

I think I should say the 20mph programme is not (as Lois suggests) aimed at bad drivers. By his own admission

Lois is normally a she ... but I'll leave it to her to link to her website

I'm 100% with Stuart on stats bettering anecdotes here, but there's something else here which interests me, namely the challenge anyone faces in trying to learn a new behaviour, in this case learning that it's normal to be drving at 20 mph in a built up area. When I drive, it feels to me as if I have two psychologically comfortable speeds, 30 mph & 70 mph (you can imagine the irritation I cause on motorways ). When at these comfortable speeds, I check the speedometer from time to time, and generally register that I'm sticking to the limit fairly well. It can't be that much to do with the gear selection, because there's a wide range of speeds which would be possible in the same gear without pushing the car excessively; somehow I must have learned this speed, in the same way a good player ball games will have learned much more complex behaviour - such as watching the ball, getting their weight onto the right foot - without having to think about it. But it's still bevaviour which initially will have to be learned more or less consciously, and with a lot of frustration in the process.

I suspect similar difficulties will be had by drivers learning to internalise to a new speed limit, whether faster or slower, although probably not to the same degree. I know those times I have driven through 20 mph speed limit areas it feels unnaturally slow to me, and I have to keep remining myself to keep my speed down. It is irritating, but I think that's just part of a learning process.

Since being a learning to drive in the first place involves teaching a whole lot of other behaviours - checking mirrors, clutch control, etc. - until they too become automatic, I'd have thought driving instructors were in a specially good position to deal with the challenges of learning new behaviours, and should set a lead in showing it is possible, and not kick against it.

[Eagle]

Surely the technology that gives us GPS could be installed in all cars that make it impossible to exceed the speed limit.

I would have thought simple.

[mosy]

Eagle, such a technology is already applied on some more expensive cars that does actually limit the speed rather than simply monitor and record speed or Ding at you. As far as I am aware, using any of them is optional. To forcibly limit a car would be wrong as there are times when you need rapid acceleration (e.g. pulling out to overtake on a motorway), nothwithstanding variable speed limits so you'd still have to set it the speed not be exceeded.

[Lois]

Thank you Tim!
Yes it is Lois (as in 'Lois Lane' or 'Lois Maxwell' who used to play Miss Moneypenny) and not Louis!

In reply to Sydenhams post - as I have already said more than once in this thread adjusting the driving speed to suit the road conditions is of course what we are supposed to do and what many of us are doing but I have to totally disagree that 20mph could ever be considered to be ‘safe’ for the worst conditions. It is often way too fast for the worst conditions!

I agree that education is important, which is why I stated that I am shocked that those who deliberately exceed the speed limits by the greatest amount are not offered the speed awareness courses.

But to imagine “it is the only way to change” things is beyond me!
As I have also pointed out, it hasn’t changed things in over 80 years as far as the 30mph limit is concerned!

I am a strong believer that more needs to be done as far as education is concerned yet I have personally refused to teach some young male drivers who openly express that they believe the rules are not for them and left one standing in the street on a road he didn’t know!

He reached 40mph and I asked him what the speed limit was and he said it was 30. I then asked him why he was doing 40 and he told me it was because he liked it. I then asked him to lower his speed to 30 and was planning on turning off onto a side road to find a suitable place to stop in order to discuss this with him but he ignored me. I then asked him to pull up on the left just after the next lamppost but he drove past it.
I then used the dual control brake and took the wheel and pulled the car over onto the left, reached right across his body and removed the keys from the ignition, got out of the car and walked round to let him out of the car and told him that I could not teach him to drive with his attitude. He grunted that was fine but said that if I was driving him home now he expected some of his money back. I told him he was not getting any refund and was making his own way home.

“But I don’t even know where I am. You can’t do that to me”.

“I’m afraid I can. This is a waste of your money and my time and I am not prepared to risk either the safety of myself and other road users or my ADI and driving licence for your benefit! I will be in touch with your parents. Goodbye” And I drove off leaving him standing on the pavement.

I called his mother who had been booking the lessons and told her what had happened and she laughed and said “Well boys will be boys I suppose”.

And what happened to that lad next?

I doubt he would have found an instructor prepared to battle with him to get him to understand the seriousness of his actions until he would listen and take it on board.

He most likely either found one who tolerated him in order to earn the money and controlled the car himself from the dual controls, or others also refused to teach him and he went for his test with no more than the three lessons he had taken with me.

Or worse still simply chose to drive illegally without a licence or insurance.

That was back in 1994.
If he had passed a driving test and got himself insured on a car there was no 2 year probation back then as there is now.
If he and the rest of us were lucky enough and his driving didn’t lead to a catastrophe, he would have needed to have been caught speeding 4 times before he received a driving ban, which was also less likely to have happened then than it is today.

And if he did, would he adhere to the ban or continue to drive illegally?

Perhaps it is a bit severe to suggest that drivers who think it’s okay to text whilst controlling a vehicle on our roads deserve to be hung, drawn and quartered.

But what of the driver several years ago who was on the roads and over the drink/drive limit and smashed into the car driven by a father who had just picked up his children from his parents after having gone out for a meal with his wife?
The tragic result of that accident was that one child was killed and the other was seriously injured.
When I heard that this driver was also on his third ban I remember thinking how awful the driving examiner who passed him might have felt.

But there was no examiner.
He had never passed his test.
He had also previously been at fault in an accident where his so called best friend, who was in the passenger seat had been killed.

So even that wasn’t enough education for this young man.
Out on the roads on a 5 year ban and over the drink/drive limit and killing again.
As far as I'm concerned that amounts to murder.

Why are we so soft?
As soon as he was out of prison he would be doing the same thing again.
Why don’t we lock him up and throw away the key in order to protect the innocent public?

Unfortunately a blanket 20mph speed limit will not affect these drivers other than to make them even more reckless due to their frustration sitting in the slower traffic.

[Sydenham]

For the avoidance of doubt, and apologies if I suggested otherwise (but I don't know where), but I do not think there is ever an absolute safe speed irrespective of conditions - a safe speed (which can be zero in some conditions) is dependant on conditions.

Some people will knowingly ignore, or be ignorant of speed limits, as with any other regulations. I believe that continual education and other measures need to be in place to remind all of us of expected standards of behaviour. To say it doesn't work ignores the success of drink driving, and seat belt legislation and associated publicity / education, to name just two recent changes. Yes, some people ignore them and think they only apply to others but on the whole we are all safer (drivers, pedestrians, cyclists etc.) since the new regulations have been introduced - behaviours have changed.

I could also mention smoking - a common occurrence 'everywhere' including planes, trains and automobiles - as well as indoors, including most satisfyingly in bedrooms (sometimes). This behaviour has changed.

This new 20 mph push is more of the same - a response to changing road and social environment and as someone said earlier in the thread just as much aimed at saving pedestrian lives - i.e. children or those on mobile phones walking into traffic as with slowing dangerously speeding motorists / cyclists / motorcyclists / lorries.

But I think Sydenham Hill might be the exceptional road and not a good example. I'm still keen to understand whether it is, or whether there are other roads like it, where driving at 20 mph is also just as 'painful', in the area. However, I suggest, as Tim has done, that as we adjust to the new speeds, then it will appear less so.

And well done with regards to your treatment of the delinquent pupil of a few years ago - its a shame there isn't a blacklist that you could have put him on - managed by DVLA - so that someone having such an attitude has to go through lots more hoops before being allowed to drive freely on the roads.

[Lois]

Mosy, my car 'dings' when I exceed the limit that I have set myself using the speed limiter.

I can hit the accelerator hard to turn the limiter off if I need speed in order to avoid a collision and don't have time to use the control on the steering wheel and cannot believe the suggestion from Eagle that we should be unable to exceed the speed limit!

I also have cruise control on my car so I don't need to use the accelerator if cruising on a clear motorway at 70mph.
These things are available on new cars but will of course only be made good use of by responsible drivers.

[Lois]

For the avoidance of doubt, and apologies if I suggested otherwise (but I don't know where), but I do not think there is ever an absolute safe speed irrespective of conditions - a safe speed (which can be zero in some conditions) is dependant on conditions.

Because of the many who don't adjust there speed accordingly i.e. when it is raining, or busy, or when children are about around schools, or time of day then limits have been imposed and will drop to the fastest considered safe at the worst time to suit the worst conditions.

Some people will knowingly ignore, or be ignorant of speed limits, as with any other regulations. I believe that continual education and other measures need to be in place to remind all of us of expected standards of behaviour. To say it doesn't work ignores the success of drink driving, and seat belt legislation and associated publicity / education, to name just two recent changes. Yes, some people ignore them and think they only apply to others but on the whole we are all safer (drivers, pedestrians, cyclists etc.) since the new regulations have been introduced - behaviours have changed.

I could also mention smoking - a common occurrence 'everywhere' including planes, trains and automobiles - as well as indoors, including most satisfyingly in bedrooms (sometimes). This behaviour has changed.

This new 20 mph push is more of the same - a response to changing road and social environment and as someone said earlier in the thread just as much aimed at saving pedestrian lives - i.e. children or those on mobile phones walking into traffic as with slowing dangerously speeding motorists / cyclists / motorcyclists / lorries.

But I think Sydenham Hill might be the exceptional road and not a good example. I'm still keen to understand whether it is, or whether there are other roads like it, where driving at 20 mph is also just as 'painful', in the area. However, I suggest, as Tim has done, that as we adjust to the new speeds, then it will appear less so.

And well done with regards to your treatment of the delinquent pupil of a few years ago - its a shame there isn't a blacklist that you could have put him on - managed by DVLA - so that someone having such an attitude has to go through lots more hoops before being allowed to drive freely on the roads.

And on my part for the avoidance of doubt - I have said that education ALONE doesn't work but throughout this thread it is clear to see that I am not at all suggesting that we do not need more of it!
If I didn't believe that I'd change my profession!

I stopped smoking back in 1994 for 11 years but sadly, started again. With repeated efforts to stop, I am, unfortunately at this time still using nicotine but I no longer smoke cigarettes. I vape.

However I have never driven under the influence of alcohol and I wouldn't travel in a car without a seat belt prior to 1983. I also had seat belts fitted to my first car in 1986, a 1963 Singer Vogue, which I could have legally driven without them.

I am all for campaigns for road safety but as a very experienced driver and rider of motorcycles, and with almost 52 years experience as a pedestrian I personally do not believe that a blanket 20mph limit round London is the best answer to reducing the accident statistics. But instead using that on the roads that need it and enforcing the law when it comes to all speed limits.

Funny enough just as many drivers quickly fasten their seat belts when they see me in my driving school car as did when they saw me in a police car! Not sure what they think I can do about it but I'm very happy to be having that effect as it's possible a life has been saved that way!

I think it was you who suggested that 30mph feels slow on the dual carriageway part of Southend Lane.
Trying to recall the last time I drove along it to remember if the road has been resurfaced, but apart from it being more of a car park in my opinion than a dual carriageway, the road surface was such that I would very often be driving a little slower than 30mph in the interests of car sympathy!

But whilst Sydenham Hill is exceptional, as already said, I believe 20mph not to be suitable for most roads. I used Brenchley Gardens as an example because despite the fact that it is not in Sydenham, it does have a 20mph speed limit.

I'd have thought driving instructors were in a specially good position to deal with the challenges of learning new behaviours, and should set a lead in showing it is possible, and not kick against it.

I also agree about the statistics but want more information regarding them. It isn't just anecdotes I have been putting forward but also reasons why I strongly believe as a very experienced and highly trained driver, that the 20mph speed limit on all roads is a mistake.

I can deal with the challenges and if you have read my posts you would see that I am driving in accordance to the changes. For me the challenge isn't keeping to the lower limit but dealing with the increased fears I have that I will be involved in an accident because of them which was borne out this week when I avoided an accident on Sydenham Hill, preventing another driver from driving into the side of my car. If I hadn't been driving and the pupil had I am sure the other driver would have been in the side of my vehicle. That is the challenge, and I have no choice but to deal with it.

With the amount of time I spend on the roads I often need to take evasive action to avoid accidents on the behalf of other drivers and fear that now these incidences will most definitely be on the increase.

I am setting a lead by driving at the limits imposed and am not kicking against it but making valid points as to why, as a person who has been involved in driver training for almost 30 years and been most successful at it, I believe this not to be a good solution.

I hope that the majority of drivers would have been able to realise the situation in time and accelerate out of the way as I had to the other day, rather than panic and brake which would have resulted in a collision!

[Sydenham]

Agree that Southend Lane road surface made driving 'fast' very uncomfortable and rattley - maybe that's the answer: let road surfaces deteriorate.

If your first car was in the eighties then it sounds that you missed the days when it was the norm not to have seat belts fitted, and not socially unacceptable to drink and drive, and it was the exception for smoking not to be permitted.

[Lois]

Agree that Southend Lane road surface made driving 'fast' very uncomfortable and rattley - maybe that's the answer: let road surfaces deteriorate.

If your first car was in the eighties then it sounds that you missed the days when it was the norm not to have seat belts fitted, and not socially unacceptable to drink and drive, and it was the exception for smoking not to be permitted.

I wasn't 17 Sydenham when I passed my test in 1986 already owning my lovely 1963 Singer Vogue, which until Black Betty has always been the car I loved the most!

I was 23 and the majority of people I worked with in the huge depot that was Low Hall Farm Depot, the LBWF depot for Transport, Cleansing, Highways, and much more, mocked me regularly for opting to have seat belts put into my 1963 Singer Vogue, which I bought from another employee there.
Most of them were still not adhering to the then 3 year old seat belt law.

And back then, I was also mocked by many for not wanting to drink and drive!
Many people I knew did it back then but far fewer today.

In fact I once had police officers trying to convince me to have a drink when I was the entertainment at a stag do for one of them. Yes after working for LBWF and before becoming an ADI I was an exotic dancer!
After refusing their offers to supply me with alcohol on the grounds that I was driving I was handed an orange juice.
I took one sip and realised it was laced with Vodka!
Upon my refusing to drink it one of them said "Go on! We promise we won't nick you"

So I think that perhaps you are just a tad out with your recollection of just when what happened


Oh and as an aside:
Interestingly during my time as a police officer between 2003 and 2005, on a murder enquiry in Brixton, where I went into a pub and was faced by a landlady I'd known years prior who used to run the bar in the hotel at the top of Sydenham Hill right next door to where I live, my earlier occupation (exotic dancer) became known to my fellow officers and it was very quickly common knowledge at Brixton Police Station.

Would you imagine that they would attempt to wind me up about it? I did! Did they? No!
So what did they choose as the thing to make jest of in my case?
The fact that I ate organically produced food! Non stop!
Leave you all to make your own conclusions there!!!

[Lois]

As per Tim Lund's suggestion I have decided to introduce myself to the posters on this thread via my web site.
I have realised that despite my first post here being back in 2008 I have not often got involved and so despite me using my real name as my username here many would not know who I am.

I would like to warn people that my site is currently in a state of flux as I am reworking it following my change of vehicle, utilising my newly learned skills at getting Google to list my site on the first page of the relevant searches, AND many other recent changes such as the DSA becoming the DVSA. But it will soon be completed.

Here is the front page of my web site
which I do hope makes it clear that I am in fact a "she"!
Absolutely no hard feelings Stuart - I haven't forgotten your thoughtful and useful response on my post re care homes for my mum which was most appreciated

By the way though, I did build this web site myself, hand coding it and creating all my own graphics.
Amazing what us women are actually capable of sometimes! LOL

I have utilised a personal approach that many instructors seem not to do, which quite frankly is my benefit and their loss, but I think that it is important that the new prospective learner driver knows as much as possible about me and how I work. This helps to reduce the number of calls I get from those who just want a quick fix few lessons around the test area just so they can pass the test with no regard to safe driving on the roads of the UK!

I will turn down the income from such potential pupils because I have a personal commitment not only to aid the responsible learner driver to the best of my ability, being prepared to learn more myself in order to help any particular individual, but also because I refuse to train people just enough to pass their driving test when I know they don't have the skills required to be safe on our roads, due to my personal commitment to general road safety for all road users.

And here is the information telling them why I refuse to conduct their driving lessons around the test routes as they may have experienced with previous instructors. And I'm sure most of you reading this would see that as normal. The majority of instructors sit in on tests to learn the routes so they can teach their pupils what they believe the examiner will be looking for at every junction etc on the route!

It would really make my day if a few could post here who took their test on roads they had never driven before because their instructor made a point of teaching them safe road skills without touching the test routes

Please do feel free to explore my web site and compare it to other instructors web sites in the area and give me any feedback.

Just hoping this will help people to see that I am far from irresponsible and so maybe might re-read my comments on this thread with a new outlook - rather than with the prejudices of who they thought I was and what they considered my motives to be.

[lulu1]

Just to illustrate how dangerous the situation is on Sydenham Hill... was driving 20mph past the speed cameras. Huge tractor behind me was almost pushing me forwards and at the same time making rude hand gestures out of the window. Then overtook, accompanied by loud beeping, on the wrong side of the traffic island, driving a lot, lot faster than 30mph (because obviously he was angry and had to show he could drive really, really fast). What if someone was crossing the road? The driver of the other car was so busy with being outraged by my 'slow' driving that he would not have seen anyone crossing the road. This is not an isolated incident, it is happening all the time. I just hate driving on this road now, it makes me so nervous as people are so incredibly rude and aggressive. Lots of children cross this road going to school, there are quite a few nursing and residential homes on Sydenham Hill as well. I am convinced making this road 20mph has made it much more dangerous and it will only be a matter of time before something will happen. When the speed limit was 30mph I never saw this type of behaviour, now I see it on a daily basis. Sydenham Hill is part of my daily commute for 11 years now, so I do know it very well and I have never felt it was a dangerous road at all. Now however.. awful. There are other roads in the area that should not be 20mph; Denmark Hill, part of Lordship Lane (from Harvester to Library) to name a couple. Westwood Hill and Crystal Palace Park Road would be another 2 roads which would probably become more dangerous if a blanket 20mph limit would be introduced in Lewisham.

[Lois]

Just to illustrate how dangerous the situation is on Sydenham Hill... was driving 20mph past the speed cameras. Huge tractor behind me was almost pushing me forwards and at the same time making rude hand gestures out of the window. Then overtook, accompanied by loud beeping, on the wrong side of the traffic island, driving a lot, lot faster than 30mph (because obviously he was angry and had to show he could drive really, really fast). What if someone was crossing the road? The driver of the other car was so busy with being outraged by my 'slow' driving that he would not have seen anyone crossing the road. This is not an isolated incident, it is happening all the time. I just hate driving on this road now, it makes me so nervous as people are so incredibly rude and aggressive. Lots of children cross this road going to school, there are quite a few nursing and residential homes on Sydenham Hill as well. I am convinced making this road 20mph has made it much more dangerous and it will only be a matter of time before something will happen. When the speed limit was 30mph I never saw this type of behaviour, now I see it on a daily basis. Sydenham Hill is part of my daily commute for 11 years now, so I do know it very well and I have never felt it was a dangerous road at all. Now however.. awful. There are other roads in the area that should not be 20mph; Denmark Hill, part of Lordship Lane (from Harvester to Library) to name a couple. Westwood Hill and Crystal Palace Park Road would be another 2 roads which would probably become more dangerous if a blanket 20mph limit would be introduced in Lewisham.

Well said!
Or should I say thank you for yet another anecdote?

You are on this road almost as frequently as I am and I do wonder whether those members commenting on this thread saying that anecdotes are not as important as statistics (even when we have no details about how these statistics were arrived at), have actually ever driven on Sydenham Hill since the speed limit change!

I had a similar experience last week when a car overtook me and another driver but had miscalculated (or perhaps not given it any thought at all due to the type of rage this situation is causing) and couldn't pull in before the island but had to continue on the wrong side of the road past the island forcing a car coming in the opposite direction to have to mount the pavement in order not to be hit. Luckily there were no pedestrians on the pavement at the time.

And a couple of days ago I was forced to hit the gas and get out of the way quick to prevent a woman pulling out of Crescent Wood Road from hitting my vehicle.

To have experienced two such incidences within one week is ridiculous. It happened once or twice a year when it was a 30mph road.

Thank you for having the courage to post here that you agree that this limit makes the road far more dangerous than it has been in the past. And I agree with you on Westwood Hill and Crystal Palace Park Road and, in fact most main roads throughout Sydenham.

Apparently it will all be fine once people have got used to it!
And we are supposed to sacrifice our vehicles, our sanity and possibly our lives to that end it seems!

I have received PM's from others who would prefer not to post and I am sure that there are many more reading this thread who agree that this is madness but who are shying away from posting due to the non-drivers being so dogmatic here but I hope that they will post here too.

There are now at least 2 drivers made to feel nervous about the consequences of driving along Sydenham Hill, with one of them being an experienced driving instructor! But all will be well when people get used to it!

Only thing is no telling when that will be seeing as people are still not used to doing 30mph with the limits being in force for over 80 years!

[stuart]

I do wonder whether those members commenting on this thread saying that anecdotes are not as important as statistics (even when we have no details about how these statistics were arrived at), have actually ever driven on Sydenham Hill since the speed limit change!

1) http://www.bmj.com/content/320/7243/1160. This is now behind a paywall but you should be able to read it for free with their free trial. It was also extensively commented upon at time of publication. You should be able to google these. This landmark study is the reason and justification of why many local authorities are implementing 20mph limits. It also clearly states the limitations of the study and self criticism. I've obviously glossed over those as you can't really discuss those without a full understanding of what it did establish.

2) Yes and roads down from Crystal Palace Parade. I live just off Westwood Hill and my daughter and grandchildren live in the Sydenham Hill area.

3) Welcome to STF. You may find this earlier discussion may be of interest: https://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12271

My apologies for my gender bendering

Stuart

[Lois]

I think you should be able to access that report here

[Rachael]

I wonder how many of these road-ragers simply don't know the speed limit on Sydenham Hill is 20mph? Because it seems so unlikely the limit would be that low on this road, I think it needs to be really flagged up.

The last time I drove on it, there were teeny-tiny signs at the entrance to the road, easy to miss and easily blocked by buses. The speed limit is painted on the road at intervals, but I'm not sure how effective that is. If there were several stinking great big signs pointing out that, yes, this really is a 20mph road, I think some (although not all) the aggression would be reduced.

[Lois]

I wonder how many of these road-ragers simply don't know the speed limit on Sydenham Hill is 20mph? Because it seems so unlikely the limit would be that low on this road, I think it needs to be really flagged up.

The last time I drove on it, there were teeny-tiny signs at the entrance to the road, easy to miss and easily blocked by buses. The speed limit is painted on the road at intervals, but I'm not sure how effective that is. If there were several stinking great big signs pointing out that, yes, this really is a 20mph road, I think some (although not all) the aggression would be reduced.

Have to disagree there Rachael

The 20 limits were badly signed for ages which annoyed me as prior to that you would teach people that if there are street lights and no repeat speed signs it's 30mph.
I think that Sydenham Hill and many more are very clearly marked now!
There is a large 20 sign at each end of the road, repeaters all along it AND signs painted on the road surface.
So far no pupils that I've taken there for the first time have failed to notice it. Most of them don't say a word and I see them adjusting the limiter.

No - I am quite sure that a lack of signs is NOT the reason that I'm sat here at my PC watching drivers slowing at the Westwood Hill end of Sydenham Hill and then STILL way faster than 20mph.
And those entering the road from the roundabout accelerating away from it with no regard to the 20mph limit.

[million]

Hi everyone!!!! Please help. I did 30mph through the new 20mph speed camera Dulwich/ Sydenham hill. As anyone had a tickect for this?

[Pally]

I wonder how many of these road-ragers simply don't know the speed limit on Sydenham Hill is 20mph? Because it seems so unlikely the limit would be that low on this road, I think it needs to be really flagged up.

The last time I drove on it, there were teeny-tiny signs at the entrance to the road, easy to miss and easily blocked by buses. The speed limit is painted on the road at intervals, but I'm not sure how effective that is. If there were several stinking great big signs pointing out that, yes, this really is a 20mph road, I think some (although not all) the aggression would be reduced.

Have to disagree there Rachael

The 20 limits were badly signed for ages which annoyed me as prior to that you would teach people that if there are street lights and no repeat speed signs it's 30mph.
I think that Sydenham Hill and many more are very clearly marked now!
There is a large 20 sign at each end of the road, repeaters all along it AND signs painted on the road surface.
So far no pupils that I've taken there for the first time have failed to notice it. Most of them don't say a word and I see them adjusting the limiter.

No - I am quite sure that a lack of signs is NOT the reason that I'm sat here at my PC watching drivers slowing at the Westwood Hill end of Sydenham Hill and then STILL way faster than 20mph.
And those entering the road from the roundabout accelerating away from it with no regard to the 20mph limit.

I drove down there at 20mph leading a lengthy queue of traffic, a couple of days ago. The antics of frustrated drivers behind me, coming out to overtake, back in because of oncoming traffic, beeping, speeding past me, one driver overtaking whilst shouting at me and NOT looking for traffic coming the other way ....unbelievably dangerous stuff because 20mph really did just feel too slow for this road!!

[broken_shaman]

I see there is a campaign group called 20's plenty http://www.20splentyforus.org.uk/ which is pushing for this to be the default speed in all urban areas.

They are bringing it in here in Lewisham.

http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/myservices/t ... limit.aspx

[_HB]

Good.

The worst part of the Southwark zone is the bit close to the borders with Lewisham. This should help to normalise 20mph across a wider part of London.