John Holland

[SquashedCommuter]

John Holland is the candidate for UKIP in the upcoming general election. He stood in the local elections for Sydenham.

Does anyone know anything about him. I tried searching for him on the internet and couldn't find any web sites or twitter feeds or anything at all about him. Is this because UKIP are banning their candidates from using internet communication in case they say something slightly politically incorrect?

Could he already be posting on this forum under a different name?

[Robin Orton]

Might he be posting under the name SquashedCommuter?

[Eagle]

Squashed Comm

Whilst , with regret , expect UKIP to win a few seats in down and out seaside resorts , think they have no chance at all in London.

It is good you are looking elsewhere than the incumbent , but UKIP , are you serious. Fruitcakes.

[Tim Lund]

Is this because UKIP are banning their candidates from using internet communication in case they say something slightly politically incorrect?

I follow two UKIP activists on Twitter - our own local @PaulJamesOakley, the other their Environment and Housing spokesperson @woodlandsandrew. No evidence there of any banning, rather, as when @AmjadBashirMEP just defected to the Conservatives, a PR machine well primed to use Twitter to get retaliation in first.

[Eagle]

Tim

I am surprised , i would have thought most UKIP fruitcakes would be too old for Twitter.

I imagine the average UKIP as retired , living in a down and out seaside town with other retired people.

Cannot believe there are many in West Lewisham , most residents far too intelligent.

[Tim Lund]

You may well be surprised. I also follow most of our local councillors, and actual or likely parliamentary candidates in this year's election. They are far more circumspect about how they use social media, maybe wisely, but this reluctance, and the real power of social media is maybe a reason why fringe parties such as UKIP and the Greens are succeed in chipping away at the mainstream.

The mainstream needs to get to grips with this, and not limit itself to silly displays such as organised clucking from the Labour Party at PMQs



or boring messages about how much fun it's been delivering leaflets which you get if you follow @heidi_mp

[alywin]

Cannot believe there are many in West Lewisham , most residents far too intelligent.

You mean you agree with the other electoral decisions they make?

[Eagle]

Alywin

Guess I should have seen that coming.

Actually not usually .

my point is too intelligent to Vote for Fruitcakes.

[SquashedCommuter]

John Holland is not even listed on yournextmp.com.

I can't find anything out about him apart from this quote which I am not sure is even the same person:

John Holland I think Miriam Begum wins the 'Three Stupidest Comments in The World' competition for today. Please tell us about the time you decided [...]

Sounds like another "genetic fatalist" attempting to suppress those who suggest that moral decision making is possible.

Again, I am not sure this is the same "John Holland" as the candidate, so if not I would be interested to find out more about the UKIP candidate. UKIP at least raise important issues such as the disastrous EU project and uncontrolled immigration which the other parties seem intent to belittle.

[SquashedCommuter]

John Holland is no longer UKIPs candidate here!

Instead they have a deaf gentleman called Gary Harding.

But today, because of open borders, people can choose which country within the EU serves them best with as little effort as possible. And our country is way at the top of the list with having the most generous Benefits and Health Care system in Europe, if not the world.

The NHS, of which is a part of my life, through hearing aids and treatments, has helped me to become the person I am today, but with ever huge numbers of EU nationals using the NHS, I and many other British people have found themselves waiting for treatment taking ever longer and longer periods of time before they can finally see the specialist.

The NHS is not an European or an international NHS, but a British NHS, paid for by the British people, and if we want to save our NHS from crumbling under the weight of underfunding and longer waiting lists, we must leave the EU.

This is fair and common sense for our Country.We need to be independent once more!

Well done to him for speaking up!

[Nigel]

It is very hard to argue with his logic - though I am sure there will be some citizens of the world types who will .
To them I would say you cant agree that our NHS is over stretched AND that we should belong to chaotic EU that a , wants to expand , and b knows a disproportionate amount of those gaining entry will go to one of its most over crowded countries .
Surely Mr Hardings sentiments must have some resonance with those who want to save our NHS even if they wouldn't embrace his party ?
A very good evening
Nigel

[stuart]

It is very hard to argue with his logic - though I am sure there will be some citizens of the world types who will

Is a citizen of Sydenham allowed to, at least, question this UKIP logic?

When, as a tourist, I receive health care within the EU it is 'free' when I produce my E111. I understood that this allowed the health provider to charge it back to the UK. I presume the reverse also happens. If this is so how can EU health tourism be a significant financial drain on the NHS?

As to other considerations this government decided to dramatically cut back on nurse training and instead import EU ready trained nurses. The cynical might claim it is using the EU to subsidise the NHS.

As to EU citizens who can legitimately move and work here - they pay taxes and are disproportionately from demographics that require less healthcare and are therefore probably net contributors?

Hence on this logic leaving the EU may have the perverse effect of damaging the NHS and also our own rights when travelling. So who is right (or less wrong)?

Stuart

[_HB]

But today, because of open borders, people can choose which country within the EU serves them best with as little effort as possible. And our country is way at the top of the list with having the most generous Benefits and Health Care system in Europe, if not the world.

Oh dear, a factual inaccuracy in the first paragraph. He's a UKIP candidate alright.......

[Nigel]

Stuart
I would like to think we are cynical / sneaky enough to get medical staff on the cheap from EU but all the evidence is that this and previous governments failed to commission training and are now paying through the nose for EU ( and further afield ) doctors nurses and of course paramedics .
The " net gain " theory is highly dangerous - I agree the stereotype young Pole or Hungarian is unlikely to place high demands on health ( different story fr housing , maternity education and pay rates ) but the EU is unarguably a conduit for non - EU migration which I think you would agree cannot even be discussed in those " net gain " terms . The Lampedusa - lewisham route is a major concern - Italy are worried about the increase and so should we be all the time there is such laxity of borders .
At the risk of upsetting HB and his feed the world the world approach - people from outside EU do place huge pressure on services and our economy and sorry to mention it but also our security services in the case of migrants from Islamic countries .
Back to the thread I think most people want to be reassured that our NHS is not being used by people who haven't helped build or maintain it . That seems reasonable to me and - I respect your different view and the fact that you have not tried to belittle the post as hysteria or frightened middle- aged white male as our sniggering schoolboy in residence will no doubt term it .

A very good evening
Nigel

[stuart]

Nigel,

I see you failed to answer the questions I posed to you. Is this an admission the UKIP logic may have been built on false foundations? That EU membership is not, as the UKIP candidate contends, disastrous for the NHS and may be beneficial depending on how you try and cost it.

And what an earth has your Lampedusa/Islamic comments got to do with this? If we are out of the EU does that effect the number of immigrants arriving in Calais and trying to sneak into the UK. Or people in Pakistan applying for visas. Of course not.

Hard to argue? Well if ducking, diving and bringing up red herrings over our EU membership is the best you can do then I think you may have shot your own fox and your namesake's too..

Stuart

[Nigel]

Stuart
how on earth have I failed to answer your questions or used red herrings?
I am not even engaging with uKIP logic - merely answering the point about does membership of the EU lead to increased pressure on NHS (and all other services) .

The Lampedusa point is very simple - an entry point for migrants and asylum seekers, mostly economic migrants , in southern Italy used as a launch pad to a better life in northern Europe . Main four destinations , Germany ,France Sweden and UK.
Main country of origin Syria - highly unlikely that Assad types or ISIS rebel would be picked out - Italy's capacity to manage these is beyond the point of collapse . Sorry but that is a challenge to security forces .

I know this is all ugly stuff but I can't see how you even attempt to dismantle the logic of it . I think you are from a nobler but shrinking group whose views are worthy but increasingly diverging from the mainstream .

Any fool will be able to spot it when climate-driven migration begins in earnest (as opposed to the current economic and war-driven migration ) - the trick is trying to recognise it now and decide as a country what we do about it . Sure as hell very few would wish to leave it to the EU to decide if potentially millions should be returned to Libya , for instance , or allowed to progress unimpeded to northern Europe . I can't be plainer.
A very good evening
Nigel

[stuart]

The Lampedusa point is very simple - an entry point for migrants and asylum seekers, mostly economic migrants , in southern Italy used as a launch pad to a better life in northern Europe . Main four destinations , Germany ,France Sweden and UK.

I wasn't arguing with that. Merely asking the question what difference leaving the EU would make to the desired destination?

They would still get to Calais as easily as today. The challenge of getting through the difficult and well patrolled border to England would surely not change? They are not EU citizens so their rights or not would be the same as today. The fences would still be the same height and the control of how many resources we deploy to stop them would not change would it?

That's why I regard this as a red herring issue as to whether we should stay or leave the EU to save the NHS. Convince me otherwise.

Stuart

[_HB]

At the risk of upsetting HB and his feed the world the world approach - people from outside EU do place huge pressure on services and our economy and sorry to mention it but also our security services in the case of migrants from Islamic countries ..

It is well established that migration is a net gain for the UK economy. Stop making things up Nigel. 2/10, must do better. And yet another thread that you drag Islam into. What a pity.

[sparticus]

Nigel writes: The Lampedusa point is very simple - an entry point for migrants and asylum seekers, mostly economic migrants , in southern Italy used as a launch pad to a better life in northern Europe . Main four destinations , Germany ,France Sweden and UK.
Main country of origin Syria - highly unlikely that Assad types or ISIS rebel would be picked out - Italy's capacity to manage these is beyond the point of collapse . Sorry but that is a challenge to security forces .

Syria, with a population of 22 million has seen at least 3.5 million people flee to refugee camps in neighbouring states and 6.5 million internally displaced. It has seen (estimates vary) up to 250,000 civilian deaths and the widespread use of rape and the massacre of civilian populations as well as the use of chemical and indiscriminate anti-personnel weapons against civilian targets. And you label people fleeing this hell-on-earth as "economic migrants"! Racist, Islamophobic twaddle I'm afraid.

[stuart]

Sparticus - I want to take issue with you. While I can't disagree with much of what you say - the discussion here is about UKIP. its candidate John Holland and his successor for our constituency.

The thrust of this candidate's plank is that exit from the EU is necessary to save the NHS. Nigel says his logic "is hard to argue against". But the logic would appear to be deeply flawed and Nigel appears unable to answer for it. He instead brings in an argument about Islamic immigrants which has nothing to do with the EU as far as I can see or he can explain,

If we want to argue about Islamic immigration there is a place to do it (TBO). It has, unless Nigel can show otherwise which, to date he hasn't, then it is a red herring/smokescreen to cover the argument about the claimed benefit to the NHS of leaving the EU. Please don't let him get away with diverting the discussion on this candidate into something else. I mean I could bring up my personal obsession with UKIP's incoherent policy on cycling or Tim could jump in with housebuilding and planning. But this has nothing to do with the EU/NHS issue either.

Stay focussed.

Stuart