This is the bus stop in Lower Sydenham by the new flats opposite the church by Sunnydene Street/opposite Fairlawn Park.
The pavement here is extremely wide and the bus stop is set quite far back from the road, but there dis no indent for the bus. There is an island in the middle of the road which means that traffic can't get past.
This seems like a bad bit of design and planning, or an error.
Traffic is pretty bad in Sydenham Road anyway and now coming out of side roads isn't easy at the best of times, especially with some of the idiots on the roads who will overtake you while pulling out of a junction!
I think not. That bus stop will be a light one - say compared to the one in the centre of Sydenham. Picking up/setting down two or three passengers is going to take a very short time. Unlikely to significantly impact the cars behind as both will probably be held at Bell Green traffic lights. Whereas if they put in an indent - not only does that remove pedestrian space - but it means the bus has to negotiate its way back into the stream of traffic.
And we know just how helpful too many motorists are at giving way if they can force their way through. So you have the dilemma, possibly hold a few motorists (typically less than six) a few seconds or hold forty or more passengers for much longer?
We need to be designing our roads and pavements for the maximum and speedy flow of people. Cars are not people. They are the most wasteful way of using road space. If we are going to have them it would seem odd they should be given priority. Well unless your name starts with Jeremy ...
Are you sure that's a quiet bus stop? It's the first one in Lower Sydenham, quite a stretch from the previous one at Berryman's Lane. I have sat behind a bus there manys a time.
stuart wrote:I think not. That bus stop will be a light one - say compared to the one in the centre of Sydenham. Picking up/setting down two or three passengers is going to take a very short time. Unlikely to significantly impact the cars behind as both will probably be held at Bell Green traffic lights. Whereas if they put in an indent - not only does that remove pedestrian space - but it means the bus has to negotiate its way back into the stream of traffic.
And we know just how helpful too many motorists are at giving way if they can force their way through. So you have the dilemma, possibly hold a few motorists (typically less than six) a few seconds or hold forty or more passengers for much longer?
We need to be designing our roads and pavements for the maximum and speedy flow of people. Cars are not people. They are the most wasteful way of using road space. If we are going to have them it would seem odd they should be given priority. Well unless your name starts with Jeremy ...
Stuart
Not sure this is a quiet bus stop at all...tons of kids get on and off there in the mornings and evenings, plus there is a school opposite.
Bottom line, the design is poor - the pavement is ridiculously large there, so even affording enough room for the bus to pull in would have made sense.
I agree that Sydenham Rd has bad traffic, and often it can be put down to knock on effects further up or down the road as opposed to be entirely down to volume. If this pavement was indented and it thus could allow traffic to pass on the outside of a stationary bus, then surely that is a good thing to aid flow.
Just pushing the bus stop back a little but would make a difference. Getting out of the side roads from Fairlawn Park or Sunnydene is a bit of a nightmare, especially when the bus is stick there, and it's got a lot worse recently since they did the new paving.
The pavement is extremely wide there, and it's not that well trodden on that side.
I live near there and like the wide pavement. It feels a lot safer and better for pedestrians. It's also helped with traffic noise. I bet it's made a huge difference to residents in the flats too. And seems to work fine. I haven't really seen any build up of traffic from buses stopping. It does seem silly they didn't move the bus stop towards the road though but ho hum.
The reasons for this are that:
- They make it difficult for buses to rejoin the main traffic flow, which is at odds with the Mayor of London's aspiration to encourage a shift from the car to other modes of transport
- They make it harder for buses to pull up to the kerb, thereby making boarding and alighting more difficult
- They increase boarding and alighting times
I agree with TfL's view. Whether or not the traffic island is in a sensible place, thereby preventing cars from overtaking while buses are stopped, is another matter.
Agree with you Lee - this has been playing on my mind since I first saw it. Of course it's a good idea to widen the pavement in front of the flats - but there's also enough room to build a slight indent for the bus stop so traffic can pass. I'll talk to the traffic engineer tomorrow.
Barry Milton
TFL can be extremely difficult to work with and have not pro-active or helpful in any of the high street improvement schemes I've been involved in, they are unbending and uncompromising. a rule is a rule, common sense does not apply.
I'm with G Man - speaking as a pedestrian living nearby and who uses that stop all the time, I like it myself.
I'd have said far more problematic is the stretch opposite the library, where drivers all merrily park their cars right on the nice new pavement outside the takeaways, leaving hardly any space to squeeze by.
TfL can be difficult to work with but it's important to stress that they only oversee the project and provide the funds. Detailed drawing up of any scheme (under LBL supervision) is down to LBL traffic engineers. When I was walking down there yesterday I was startled to see that a long "central reservation" is now under construction opposite the bus stop which only makes matters worse. What's happening here bears no resemblance to the original plans - I've just checked them. I've reported this with photos to the engineers and this message has been backed up by local councillors. Let's wait and see what happens.
Just for information and nothing directly to do with this issue - the plan is to place a number of short stay parking places on the other side of the road in front of the library and church hall.
Can I just clarify Lee and Barry what you are asking for?
* That the nice wide pavement be taken away from pedestrians
* That traffic be brought nearer to homes
* That crossing the road be made more difficult
* That bus passengers journeys be slowed down
* That traffic attempting to pass can swerve out causing hazards
All so a few motorists can save a few seconds to block the bus further up the road?
Is this a sound green/environmental/sustainable/economic/unselfish proposition?
Traffic is backing up all the way to Mayow Road (although, tbh, I don't know if it is these buses that is causing that, or something else). Stuart - how about adding to list the quality of life and of the air for people living in that part of lower Sydenham? Having a frequent honking traffic jam isn't an advantage to anyone, least of all buses held up further along the road by their compatriots blocking it at Sunnydeane.
I like the wider pavement, but it is SO wide you could make a modest pull-in for buses and still a wider than average pavement there.
I sometimes have to do that road up to six times a day. I always blamed the Kent House Road traffic lights which appear to be set as the pinch point. The Sydenham Road setting is quite short, not enough, usually, for all traffic to clear it. The opposite for KHR itself. And then a separate phase for the tiny road that comes out by the Wesleyan Chapel. It always goes green but I've never seen a vehicle come out of it.
The pedestrian phase is often wasted since any able bodies person will have given up and already run through the stationary traffic.
If we could sort that then all cars, buses, bikes and pedestrians may benefit.
I'm not sure how you managed to mine that info Stuart, from what we posted. It's a ridiculous list.
The road should have been designed so that when a bus stops traffic can pass around it rather than totally blocking the road when the road is wide enough.
With a bit of design it would have been possible to position the bus stop and the central reservation in a way that allows traffic to pass by when a bus stops rather than completely blocking the road.
It's up the the designers to sort that out. In this case they have failed. It shouldn't have been difficult.
I'd quite like, when I drive my car to pick my son up from nursery which is a 30 minutes walk each way, twice a day, (I don't have the time to walk every day, sometimes it's pissing it down with rain or just stupidly cold), that I don't have to fight to come out of the side road I live in or have people do drive dangerously because of the traffic as I have already stated. Road layouts are not about making as much traffic as possible and making life as difficult for someone who has a a car.
This forum is getting a bit ridiculous. Thanks for the bit of common sense Barry.
