Lee Jasper wrote:What is true, is Sydenham like any Town in the UK, is not immune to racism and where such odious bigotry makes itself apparent it will be vigorously challenged.
And also, it seems, when it isn't apparent.
Both your post hinting at a 'broader agenda' and Terence's suggesting overt racism elevated this to an absolutely unnecessary level; several posters were given no choice but to strenuously deny they were racist, a position they should not have been put in. This is why Nigel's comments on your involvement have a certain validity.
If race can be removed from this discussion I have no doubt it will start to be fruitful. If it remains as a subtext, we have no chance.
When one has a fire, it should be no surprise that a firefighter turns up. The Club certainly believes that it has been treated differently by some parties because of the ethnicity of the owner and the demographic of its patrons and unfortunately there is real evidence emerging of differential treatment that validates the Club fears. These issues are not counterposed, the Club can be a victim of racism and some local neighbours can and do have genuine concerns.
We will be saying a lot more about this later however in relation to the specifics of of this thread, parking and noise nuisance we are more than happy to positively engage and take people as we find them.
This is purely a parking space issue. I have suggested one would be lucky to find a dozen legal parking spaces within 5 mins of the venue not being occupied at 11 pm ish.
If patrons came by Night Bus or Taxi would not be a problem. Also they could have a drink.
For the sake of all I hope this can be sorted out amicably .
I wish the local residents and new owners all the best in trying to sort out. The answer lies in the lack of parking.
Eagle wrote:This is purely a parking space issue. I have suggested one would be lucky to find a dozen legal parking spaces within 5 mins of the venue not being occupied at 11 pm ish.
If patrons came by Night Bus or Taxi would not be a problem. Also they could have a drink.
For the sake of all I hope this can be sorted out amicably .
I wish the local residents and new owners all the best in trying to sort out. The answer lies in the lack of parking.
I agree with you 100% and many thanks for your best wishes.
Isn't it fascinating how Lee's little hint of racism became a statement of the obvious (" Sydenham is not immune to racism" ) , which then became an implication that the objection to Zanzibar is race based .
I am sure some would enjoy a complex MacPhersonesque debate about race politics and its implication for the night time economy etc but I think we should cut it dead, and this really is my last word on this subject : although it is a game and a tactic to some , I think it is hurtful and decisive .
I literally shudder to think what some of our traders and friends think to hear this discussion after many column yards of discussion on this forum about our favourite / less favourite shops and business.
Given that many of our favourite shops are owned by , Pakistans , Sikhs, Africans, Turks ,Bangladeshis ,African Caribbeans, Poles, Irish , English , Afghans and apologies to whoever I've left out - not ONCE have I ever heard the slightest implication that ethnicity has any bearing whatsoever .
One thing Lee said that I do agree with : " Everybody should calm down " . I agree with that for two reasons :
1- because I think these nasty and false inferences show how few arguments the club has remaining
2- because I think it will close soon and I hope become an altogether different venue .
I am a frequent reader of the forum but as a relatively new resident who moved to Kirkdale in mid 2014, I haven't often felt compelled to post. However, I feel the cynical and bullying approach from Lee Jasper and MrT should be responded to.
The painful experience of residents over several years (documented on the forum, written about in local newspapers and in conversations I have had with neighbours) clearly demonstrates that having a venue like Zanzibar in a residential area isn't working. Multiple owners have tried and failed to improve the situation and each time a new owner comes in the same platitudes are offered, before the cycle repeats. For Lee Jasper to characterise local residents' legitimate request that the club is shut as 'knee-jerk' is patently ridiculous.
I think the huge number of posts on this forum (100,000 and counting) and almost universally respectful (if at times passionate) tone across an incredibly wide range of topics shows the strong sense of community in Sydenham and also the pride that local people feel for the area. This forum is clearly far more representative of the local area than the small group of owners of Zanzibar whose interests Lee is so anxious to defend.
I'm amazed that Lee Jasper has the gall to talk about being fair to the new owners, when multiple owners of this nightclub have tried to make as much money for themselves as possible without a second thought for how fair it is to residents to drag the reputation of the town through the mud and make its residents' lives hell.
I am loathed to dignify the cynical accusations of racism with a response and agree with Nigel that the fact that he has fallen to the depths of accusing decent people of this shows that he feels he can't win an argument based on the facts. It is telling that whilst Lee Jasper almost instantly resorted to defamatory attacks on people's characters, members of the forum have limited their attacks to Lee Jasper's flimsy arguments.
Lee Jasper says that Zanzibar is 'a permanent feature of the local community', but 291 Kirkdale has not always been a nightclub and if enough pressure to act is put on our MP and local councillors it will be returned to a use more inkeeping with the surrounding area.
Lee Jasper wrote:The Club certainly believes that it has been treated differently by some parties because of the ethnicity of the owner and the demographic of its patrons and unfortunately there is real evidence emerging of differential treatment that validates the Club fears.
What is this evidence? What other venues in the area are there to compare to the Zanzibar?
i think certain people who like to make stupid and exaggerated claims and accusations should man up and identify themselves and the road they live on
Eagle
Nigel
Gaddison
Biscuitman1978
Gillyjp
Mosy
If you cannot give your full name and the road you live on or work on in the area you should shut up
you make up things and try you best to paint a negative picture of the club then hide behind your alias purely because you do not like the idea that black people go to this club. We cater for Black, White, Asian, Chinese, American’s Germans we treat everyone the same FAIRLY.
My name is Terence Reid and I am the manager of the Maestro Arts and Entertainment Centre. I have no problem identifying who I am and standing by my record. My office is open every day for anyone to come in and highlight any disturbances they are suffering. When there is an event at the club I am there at the front of the venue available to address anything put to me. As for Gaddison you spoke to me on Sunday evening and I can tell you we had more support on your road from people who acknowledged the improvements to the club since we took over than whom claim there has been no improvements,
I'll try and keep this brief because, like Nigel, I have no desire to engage with these people anymore. Your list of posters above contains the very people who have been inconvenienced in one way or another and their families who have been disturbed by the chaos the Zanzibar club has caused. I would be very careful if I were you before you start playing the race card because you know nothing about me. You do not know my ethnicity or that of my family. I fear you are being a tad presumptuous by attempting to second guess it.
I don't feel that I have to justify further my genuine complaints about this club - it has been well documented and proven in the past and now in the present and I don't see why we should have to keep being inconvenienced by having to repeatedly document our valid complaints. But so be it if the nuisance continues.
It must be evident now to the owners/managers of the Zanzibar that they have successfully shot themselves in the foot with their unfounded allegations. I take my hat of to my fellow posters on this subject who have shown restraint and kept a clear head in response.
It is ridiculous that a club which admits it expected upwards of 700 people at a recent event and then fails to contain the ensuing chaos should keep it's license.
Well said, gillyjp, and a hearty round of applause to the other posters who have reacted with dignity to some pretty inflammatory remarks.
I must admit I was scratching my head, wondering what supernatural powers allowed MrT to divine the ethnicity of posters whom he himself acknowledged were anonymous. That's quite a party trick.
A trick I lack Rachael. I have not met the Zanzibar owner and had no idea of his ethnicity. I never even thought about it until Lee raised it. The mention of a 'wake' led me to mistakenly assume the problem parkers were Irish (as SWMBO only mentioned the parked cars were causing mayhem and did not mention the ethnicity of the drivers).
I don't know if this makes me an innocent abroad but I hope may explain the hurt and horror I felt at what was alleged. I do hope Mr T and Lee will come to appreciate that prejudging can be terribly wrong and causes unnecessary alienation. I too thank others for their restrained response. We need to mend bridges. If the club is to remain open or close it should be done on entirely objective grounds on the level of disturbance it causes. No unreasonable disturbance no problem.
Oh dear. The more this goes on, the more often 'Methinks the lady doth protest too much' creeps irresistibly (and no doubt quite unjustifiably) into my mind.
I wonder whether more progress might be made if people got down off their high horses a bit?
Update from Matt McGrath who has been very responsive and helpful - the appeal against denial of the 4 am extension was turned down with no further right of appeal . Well done to all involved not least the Met who are obviously listening to people's concerns and acting on them .
A very good evening
Nigel
As a relatively new resident in Sydenham (Just 3 months ago), I was very taken aback when I noticed all the crowds but more so the amount of cars parked on pavements, blocking junctions etc on the night in question. Honestly I did not even know there was a nightclub there but it was not hard to figure it out.
I've read all the posts in this thread and my mouth hit the floor at some of the replies from the Zanzibar management. Don't get me wrong, your apology was duely noted and for me at least, accepted, however when Lee went on to imply that the complaints of the neighbourhood residents were racially motivated and MrT went all out guns blazing playing the racial card that's where all credibility went out the window. Those responses were wholly unacceptable. Not only were they baseless in my opinion but playing the race card only further serves to increase racism. You helped NO-ONE with those implications and statements. No one at all. Least of all your own business. I mean really, calling specific posters out asking for names? What on earth are you thinking? Address the PROBLEM, not the people.
That being said, do I expect a club to manage where people park? No. That is wholly the responsibility of the local council and authorities. The club staff have no right to prevent people parking where they should not and we should not be holding them accountable for such. If anything we should be directing that complaint to the council for their complete lack of action. I have no doubt if everyone was issued a ticket for parking on the pavement that night, we would see a drastic reduction on the next event and so on and so forth. No amount of stewards will help as they have no legal right to prevent anyone parking illegally. All we can blame the club for here is not being encouraging enough to not bring cars and as someone who has worked in the club industry ( a fair while ago ) encourage is all you can do.
There seems to be pitchforks and nooses in this thread but I don't believe that the pitchforks are necessarily being pointed in the right direction or the right people being lined up for the noose.
I will say again however, and I say this as someone who has worked in the club industry that some of the replies here from the Zanzibar club were completely unacceptable and I would consider seriously taking more care in your responses in the future because all you achieved was angering and already angry mob, that's not good PR and won't help future license applications you make.
That's my two penneth as someone who lives a stones throw away from the venue, do with it what you will.
That being said, do I expect a club to manage where people park? No. That is wholly the responsibility of the local council and authorities. The club staff have no right to prevent people parking where they should not and we should not be holding them accountable for such. If anything we should be directing that complaint to the council for their complete lack of action. I have no doubt if everyone was issued a ticket for parking on the pavement that night, we would see a drastic reduction on the next event and so on and so forth. No amount of stewards will help as they have no legal right to prevent anyone parking illegally. All we can blame the club for here is not being encouraging enough to not bring cars and as someone who has worked in the club industry ( a fair while ago ) encourage is all you can do.
Well, you're not 100% correct. Any licensed premises has a positive duty to act to uphold the the licensing objectives. If their presence contributes to nuisance, crime & disorder, public (un)safety issues, or harm towards children (to paraphrase the four objectives) then their license can come under review. The problem is, however, as you allude to above, the staff of the club have very little authority in directing where their patrons park.
To be honest, what I really don't understand about Zanzibar is why it needs to (or wants to) open until the early hours. The business model seems to rely on opening so late that they then get the contents of other venues decanted into their club after everywhere else is closed: personally, I can't think of a single venue in that part of London that opens past 0200 hours. Naturally, if large numbers of people are going to turn up after having previously been elsewhere there is clearly going to be a greater chance of disorder and disruption at an ungodly hour. Why can't they just close at midnight like lots of other places?