Aerial Photograph of the Croydon Canal!

[will greenwood]

Hi
I've been studying Forest Hill and Sydenham history for many years, and recently returned to the subject via the internet, which has led me to many amazing discoveries and old images etc.
I've always been particularly fascinated by the Croydon canal ...so, with my new knowledge and a bit of digital magic, may I present to you the 'Google Earth view of Forest Hill and Sydenham c. 1823'....(at least an amusing facsimile....with some artistic license)

<ahref>http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.c ... 9163<ahref>


and as it is today;
<ahref>http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.c ... 9263<ahref>

(May I also thank everyone on this forum for all the information and pictures...it has given me a far more complete vision of it all.)

I hope these links work...if not, message me and i'll sort something out.
cheers
Will

[will greenwood]

Hi again..
Its seems those links dont work...can anyone tell me how to post pictures on this forum....
cheers
Will

[leenewham]

You need a flickr or photobucket account.

What's your name on myspace, ill add you as a friend. I'm the moderator of the graphic design group on there.

[Falkor]

I've had a look at the aerial photo but don't quite understand how it relates to Sydenham, Forest Hill or the Croydon Canal. I see no artistic license; it just looks like a random patch of land in the form of a satellite photo saved from Google Earth.

[will greenwood]

..oh well...
many hours of overlaying canal stretches and locks in the right place, as well as removing streets etc...hardly random....please look deeper...or is there a way i can post the zoomable image....
perhaps its the resolutiion on that image...i'll try flickr

[will greenwood]

This is a better version via flickr...
I realise it isnt perfect...but it DOES show the canal , in place more or less as it was....
the north wood is obviously more extensive than in reality....but i was mainly concentrating on the canal route ...the bridge over the canal is also a work in progress...as i said...its rough...but hopefuly of some use to those who dream...


<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/22829730@N07/2194813931/" title="forest hill aerial template by greenwoodwill23, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2370/219 ... d7bc_b.jpg" width="1024" height="650" alt="forest hill aerial template" /></a>

compare to this...as it is today;

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/22829730@N07/2194816053/" title="forest hill aerial. by greenwoodwill23, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2344/219 ... 2a89_b.jpg" width="1024" height="650" alt="forest hill aerial." /></a>


if it is, as Falkor seems to say, rubbish...i'll remove the post.

[Falkor]

Oh, I can see it starting to take shape! You need to get it on here in original size somehow then we can have a proper look. One option would be to email it to me as a JPEG attachment. Use this address for up to 20Mb: rarekfm@hotmail.com
I can then post it on here for you using my work host. Otherwise, you need to find another free host other than FlickR without limitations, but this can be a hard task. I use this for my website:
www.awesomewebspace.com
After registering an account, you can use them to link to a large image without embedding it. No doubt there are many other hosts, although I haven't researched enough into them.

[will greenwood]

heres the original google earth page with road names...makes it easier to understand the other images.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/22829730@N07/2195690070/" title="map by greenwoodwill23, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2348/219 ... dd1c_o.jpg" width="960" height="658" alt="map" /></a>

[Falkor]

[will greenwood]

Thanks Falkor!!
thats big enough ......perhaps you could put up a small version with the road names too...
thanks mate
Will

[Steve Grindlay]

I'm very impressed by what you've done, Will; perhaps only Falkor could have done something similar.

However, I find it difficult to relate the route of the canal in the "aerial template" with the current topography. The landscape you have superimposed does not appear to relate either to the contemporary (ie 1809-1836) or the present landscape. For example field boundaries, tracks, woodland and so on do not seem to relate to the enclosure map, tithe map or other contemporary documents.

I'm sure you've read Brian Salter's booklet, Retracing Canals to Croydon and Camberwell. This very effectively superimposes the canal on earlier OS maps (with the exception of <this>, of course). I have to admit that I find Salter's method easier to follow.

[will greenwood]

Hi Steve.
I have to say I only really concentrated on the canal route for this first attempt....
leaving a few roads etc that were vaguely contemporary, the fields are for the most part random....I just wanted to see if the idea was valid.before setting out on the full job....actual houses and fields etc would be more difficult, if not far more satisfying...
I've not read nearly enough about the canal, really, and i dont have acces to some of the maps i'd like..(also, the macclesfield canal cant fulfill all of the bends adequately)
anyway...I'm glad the idea works; I'll try to build a 'proper' one, as the images become available.

[Falkor]

I'm a bit confused regarding Will's objective and what he is trying to achieve. The fact that the aerial photo has been edited with roads removed I think Will was going for the contemporary. A lot of effort has already gone into this, and with a bit more work, I think this could be achieved. But then you have to ask yourself what is the usefulness of such a project?

http://forum.sydenham.org.uk/viewtopic. ... a167a3f73d
Here, I've superimposed the Croydon Canal onto a current map without editing the map. This is to show where the canal and feeders ran in relation to today's roads and streets.

http://forum.sydenham.org.uk/viewtopic. ... 9d5664837a
Here I've superimposed the Crystal Palace Park features onto a current aerial photo without editing the background. This is to show, for example, where an old fountain would have been in relation to today's athletics track and other specific buildings and features.

Will's project does not appear to make any historical contrast/comparison. The canal is presented realistically in a muddy colour as it would have looked from the air, rather than the obvious blue for the purpose of highlighting it. In other words, I don't think Will is attempting to help us understand the route, even though it looks accurate. It's my guess that Will is attempting to create a work of photographic art based on the historic Croydon Canal. A similar type of project might be to take a photograph of the Crystal Palace in Dallas and superimpose it on a photo of the upper terrace in Crystal Palace Park--purely aesthetic. In other words, it's something to frame and hang on the wall; we aren't gaining any information from such a project.

I'm sure you've read Brian Salter's booklet, Retracing Canals to Croydon and Camberwell. This very effectively superimposes the canal on earlier OS maps (with the exception of <this>, of course).

I don't think any such project has so far superimposed the Croydon Canal onto a map or aerial photo--specifically for showing the course--with satisfying results. Some innaccuracies have been pointed out in that book, but the main problem in my opinion is the poor scale. Such a project is possible in better scale, but is plagued with problems. There is no accurate triangulated maps between 1806-1839 that could possibly be used as a reliable source for superimposition. Ken Kiss' attempt at one stretch was based on plot boundaries and had to be superimposed on an earlier map that still showed remnants of the canal. And in this particular attempt, the correct width of the canal at the bottom of Albion Villas Road was not shown. Fortunately, we have this website that's painstakingly analysed the Croydon Canal route throughout based on all different kinds of corroborated evidence:
http://www.londoncanals.co.uk/croydon/ccintro.html

[will greenwood]

I dont think I'll bother again, then...
I'd imagined it was quite interesting, and for an evenings work, quite inspired...... I thought, with a bit of work, a zoomable, navigable image could be created....all very time team, i suppose....
It certainly helped me visualise things better.....dry maps are one thing...but to be able to imagine the view from dartmouth arms bridge towards honor oak, with the canal winding away.......the view from the observatory at the top of forest hill road......the open country sweeping off towards catsford and Kent from that flight of locks must have been very impressive....
I am only an amateur ex resident, so dont aspire to lofty flights of academic precision...
I simply thought someone may, like me, find it interesting..

I had certainly hoped for positive feedback as to how to improve on the idea...but I see it has no value.

a mere whimsey.

[tulse hill terry]

Dear Will,

I think it's been a great effort in such a short space of time, and open to endless refinement in the future. I think there is space for everybody's contribution.

And Falkor, I thought you were against elitism, or am I mistaken?

[Falkor]

And Falkor, I thought you were against elitism, or am I mistaken?

I am against it, but then I don't see how that is relevant to this topic. Apologies if my statements come across too bold or sound negative. Basically, I was just trying to ascertain what Will's project is and what it isn't. I can't criticise it. I've criticised the book Steve mentioned regarding the canal being superimposed onto low scale maps, but then it's aims as I see it are different to Will's in that respect. If Will wants to show an artistic representation of what the Croydon Canal might have looked like from the air--without presenting any contrast or comparison--then he's done a bloody good job in my opinion. Again, apart from what Steve mentioned about the landscape not quite matching contemporary times--and this could always be worked upon in the future--I think Will has achieved what he set out to do. The route of the superimposed canal does indeed look accurate.

[will greenwood]

If Will wants to show an artistic representation of what the Croydon Canal might have looked like from the air--without presenting any contrast or comparison--then he's done a bloody good job in my opinion......

.........I think Will has achieved what he set out to do. The route of the superimposed canal does indeed look accurate.

thanks..
thats all I set out to do at this stage.
(and I couldnt have done it without all the hard work and great images etc on this forum, particularly Falkor's work and Steve Grindleys images.)...
so...off to draw a picture of that view from the dartmouth arms..
best wishes all
Will

[will greenwood]

Hi
I think I've got nearer what I was attempting with this.
(thanks to a bit of help from Henry Rothwell at 'Digital Digging')
I dont know how useful it is, but I find it fascinating to see the area as it was so long ago.
this is very much a work in progress, so please feel free to add anything, amend the course etc...
I hope it works

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie ... &z=14&om=0

(when map is loaded, click 'view in google earth' just above the panel.)

will

[Falkor]

Good job, but I don't think the canal widened at this stretch:

[will greenwood]

fair enough..
the maps i have point to a lock pound, to supply water for the flight.
I'll keep checking.
cheers
w