278 - 280 Kirkdale

[biscuitman1978]

Hi all - there doesn't seem to be much movement on this plot of land? Is the wine bar still being built? Would be a shame if the plans came to nothing….

After some initial groundworks there was a brief hiatus, but work started again last week, hence the arrival of the two big diggers on site!

[mosy]

Same story from me - parking restrictions in force, presumably for big equipment access/exit and heavy equipment vehicle on site, so definitely something happening...

[mosy]

Yup! Looks like they've excavated a basement area. A big machine was down in it today and another one was on the site. So it looks like "full speed ahead" at the moment.

[G-Man]

Disappointed to see another developer is letting down Sydenham with promises of a wine bar to bring new night time economy to the area, when actually the site is being advertised on the Acorn website as either retail or financial services. I found this via Twitter.

http://www.acorncommercial.co.uk/proper ... ndon-8529/

Really peeved about this, as was hoping this developer would stick to their word. Do you know otherwise Pat? Or anyone from the Sydenham Society?

G-Man

[Tim Lund]

What seems oddly out of touch about this is how they market the area to potential investors:

local neighbours including Tesco, Lloyds bank, a public house

Do they have any recognition of what makes Sydenham Road & Kirkdale different from all the other High Strees across London?

[G-Man]

I know Tim.

I find it infuriating that they have clearly told Pat and the Sydenham Society one story and have completely gone against that.

It even says the landlord will not accept an application for change of use. So bang goes any chance of a bar, or eatery.

G-Man

[BelindaLester]

Hello -

I've been speaking to the developer and the agents as (don't tell anyone) I'm always on the lookout for additional sites in the area, as well as our little shop at 161 Kirkdale.

I understand that the original intention wasn't feasible given current lending criteria (commercial and residential). Change of Use was a pragmatic decision in order for this project to be completed. It's as tiresome as that, but I'm sure we can encourage an exciting tenant with broad A1 ambitions (I have a few ideas!).

B

[G-Man]

Ah. Thanks for clarifying Belinda. I guess I was just being sceptical because of the Greyhound shenanigans.

As for a new tennant, yes, let's hope so, and I generally like your ideas too!

Cheers

G-Man

[Tim Lund]

I understand that the original intention wasn't feasible given current lending criteria (commercial and residential). Change of Use was a pragmatic decision in order for this project to be completed. It's as tiresome as that

I'd always understood that commercial factors were not material planning considerations, and googling I found this one pager on the RTPI site. which seems to confirm this

NON-MATERIAL PLANNING CONSIDERATIONS:
Issues that are not relevant to the decision:
...
• Applicant’s personal circumstances (unless exceptionally and clearly relevant, e.g. provision of facilities for someone with a physical disability)
...
• Loss of property value

'personal' is used here because the page is meant for individuals coming up against the planning system, rather than businesses, but I think 'business' could be just as well understood.

I would have thought that if planning permission had been given for a wine bar, but then the developers realised they couldn't borrow the money they needed to complete if they included a wine bar, then they should have looked for alternative sources of funding, i.e. selling out to a better capitalised developer who did not need to go cap in hand to some lender. If that meant they lost out - well, loss of property value is also not a planning consideration.

[BelindaLester]

Tim, most developers revise their plans over the course of projects of this scale and I wasn't speculating on the ability of the developer to fund the project. I perhaps could have been clearer that project 'completion' shouldn't just mean ensuring the building is finished.

I am sure that a key consideration was that residential (and some commercial) lending is increasingly difficult with an A4 premise involved. You are right that commercial and property value considerations aren't 'relevant' in planning - but these are certainly taken into account when you apply for a mortgage, or seek investment to take on a new commercial site/grow a business. It's one thing to ensure a new building is completed - and quite another to ensure that the units don't sit empty after completion.

This is an opportunity - A1 is not a limitation, for the right business model (particularly as A1 can be A3 for up to two years without planning permission). I hope we can attract a great business to our neighbourhood