Plans for new gates on the up platform at Sydenham station are now available on the Lewisham planning website.
The plan is for an automatic, unstaffed gate with two turnstiles (one normal width and one wide turnstile) leading onto Peak Hill Gardens. The turnstiles will open automatically for anyone with a valid ticket or season Oystercard. Eventually the turnstiles will also accept "ordinary" Oystercards. A new ticket machine will be erected at the entrance to the gates.
http://acolnet.lewisham.gov.uk/LEWIS-XS ... mkey=54546
Details of the plans for new gates at Forest Hill station are also available on the Lewisham Planning website at:
http://acolnet.lewisham.gov.uk/LEWIS-XS ... mkey=54427
Plans for new gates Sydenham Station
Re: Plans for new gates Sydenham Station
Excellent, thanks for the link. I notice that at the foot of the page it says:
Do you suppose this is meant to include support or opposition from people who are affected but aren't on the consultations list?If you would like to comment on this application please send an email to planning@lewisham.gov.uk including the Application Number, your name, address, comment and reason for interest.
Bensonby - please don't.
I know you want all station gates everywhere removed to return us all to some imagined idyllic world of 1950s British Rail. The rest of us just want access to our station on both sides of the track and if a gate (staffed or unstaffed) is the way to get it, we'd be very happy.
By providing some "get out" clause (which no doubt Southern and other opponents will seize enthusiastically) you will prevent that access.
I don't give a toss about Health and Safety or some minor clause of the Railway statutes (which no doubt you will unearth!). I just want to get into the station if I have a valid ticket.
Please stick to providing tips on how to avoid paying the full fare on trains (all perectly legal of course but subsidised by the rest of us!) rather than putting some other obstacle in the way of locals accessing their station.
I know you want all station gates everywhere removed to return us all to some imagined idyllic world of 1950s British Rail. The rest of us just want access to our station on both sides of the track and if a gate (staffed or unstaffed) is the way to get it, we'd be very happy.
By providing some "get out" clause (which no doubt Southern and other opponents will seize enthusiastically) you will prevent that access.
I don't give a toss about Health and Safety or some minor clause of the Railway statutes (which no doubt you will unearth!). I just want to get into the station if I have a valid ticket.
Please stick to providing tips on how to avoid paying the full fare on trains (all perectly legal of course but subsidised by the rest of us!) rather than putting some other obstacle in the way of locals accessing their station.
snide comments aside nasaroc, the H&S issues surrounding manning ticket barriers are very real; whilst there is no primary legislation that I am aware of that means they have to be manned various supervisory authorities make it pretty clear that they have to be.
cf. Hansard (Lords) 27/06/1988
and, more importantly, the HSE seem to indicate that barriers must be manned. See, for example, the bottom of page 8 here:
http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/2 ... ummary.pdf
I fully intend to contact them to point me to judgements/guidance and so on that have been made in this respect.
Out of interest, where does it say that this barrier will not be manned?
cf. Hansard (Lords) 27/06/1988
and, more importantly, the HSE seem to indicate that barriers must be manned. See, for example, the bottom of page 8 here:
http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/2 ... ummary.pdf
I fully intend to contact them to point me to judgements/guidance and so on that have been made in this respect.
Out of interest, where does it say that this barrier will not be manned?
One must always pay the full fare - unless using a sanctioned discount - however, it is common sense is it not to pay the cheapest possible fare? I travel to MAnchester quite often and always buy advanced tickets, as they are about a quarter of the price.....nasaroc wrote:Bensonby - please don't.
Please stick to providing tips on how to avoid paying the full fare on trains (all perectly legal of course but subsidised by the rest of us!) rather than putting some other obstacle in the way of locals accessing their station.
Bensonby, that example says that staff need to be "nearby" - it does not say that barriers need to be manned, ie having someone stationed right by them. "Nearby" could be across the platform inside the ticket office, patrolling the platforms, doing other work on either platform... depending on how it is defined. Basically, I don't think that shows supervisory authorities making anything particularly clear.bensonby wrote:snide comments aside nasaroc, the H&S issues surrounding manning ticket barriers are very real; whilst there is no primary legislation that I am aware of that means they have to be manned various supervisory authorities make it pretty clear that they have to be.
cf. Hansard (Lords) 27/06/1988
and, more importantly, the HSE seem to indicate that barriers must be manned. See, for example, the bottom of page 8 here:
http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/2 ... ummary.pdf
Quoting from Hansard:
"... prior to barriers being installed, a full risk assessment must be submitted to the HSE and the station operator who is installing the gates must carry out an operational safety assessment"
Clearly Southern will be subject to this and I for one would trust the HSE to make a correct assessment of the risk as they will doubtless have done on many other stations.
What exactly is your concern Bensonby? Clearly you must think that these barriers will present some serious H&S risk - can you be more specific, or are you just trying to find any possible way of stopping these being installed?
My concern is that it will limit access to the station. What happens if your ticket doesn't work (for whatever reason) or what happens if you are going on holiday, have a suitcase and one of those big tickets that thetrainline sends in the post?What exactly is your concern Bensonby? Clearly you must think that these barriers will present some serious H&S risk - can you be more specific, or are you just trying to find any possible way of stopping these being installed?
what about if the platoform has to be evacuated? How does emergency service access work?
These all sound like very obvious questions which the Council will no doubt ask, if the proposal doesn't already answer them. I notice it mentions a wide access gate for luggage, etc. I also know that these types of gates can be controlled remotely by controls in the ticket office (for example) which would allow them to be opened in an emergency.bensonby wrote:My concern is that it will limit access to the station. What happens if your ticket doesn't work (for whatever reason) or what happens if you are going on holiday, have a suitcase and one of those big tickets that thetrainline sends in the post?What exactly is your concern Bensonby? Clearly you must think that these barriers will present some serious H&S risk - can you be more specific, or are you just trying to find any possible way of stopping these being installed?
what about if the platoform has to be evacuated? How does emergency service access work?
The one question that is not answered immediately is what happens when your ticket doesn't work, however what's very relevant is the reference to a similar installation at Acton Central. This was clearly deemed suitable and safe, and hence there it is very unlikely that the Sydenham proposal should be any different.
Bensonby, I really don't see the need for you to go investigating H&S rules, etc etc, in some sort of bid to stop this going ahead. You haven't raised anything that the Council won't consider. We all know you are opposed to this, you have made it clear from the start that this would be your position, but as Thomas said - sometimes you need to stop and look at the benefit to the community as a whole.
I can't actually see anything in the application that says it will be unstaffed - Nasaroc, can you let us know where this is?boon wrote:On a more annoying note, what happens when the barrier eats your monthly ticket?
Much as I want to see this gate, I do agree with Ben that H&S come first over any other concerns.
This all looks pretty uncontroversial to me - as the application says, a similar but larger installation was recently put in at Action Central station and it looks rather like the set-up at other stations I've been to. OK it might not be manned at all times, but how often is that going to be a problem? Hopefully there would be an intercom connecting to the ticket office if someone does have ticket problems and staff will be able to let the gates open in an emergency. Its also worth reminding that the design and access statement states that this will be DDA compliant.
I have already e-mailed the council to state my support for the scheme and would encourage others to do so (contact details can be found in the application which can be found on the link in the OP).
This is a very good victory for the Sydenham Society so let's not give anyone an excuse to undermine it. We should also remember that this was achieved by people who give up their own time for the wider benefit of the community - negotiating with rail companies is not my idea of a nice relaxing evening.
I have already e-mailed the council to state my support for the scheme and would encourage others to do so (contact details can be found in the application which can be found on the link in the OP).
This is a very good victory for the Sydenham Society so let's not give anyone an excuse to undermine it. We should also remember that this was achieved by people who give up their own time for the wider benefit of the community - negotiating with rail companies is not my idea of a nice relaxing evening.
The only way that checking this will cause problems is if the proposed plan is unsafe. I don't see why there's a problem with Ben checking this with the planning commision. I can't imagine that anyone here would want Southern to erect a gate that doesn't meet basic legal requirements, regardless of convenience.
If the gate meets requirements, they'll verify that. If it doesn't, Southern will have to install a gate that is safe. Checking this only makes it less likely that Southern will get away with saving money by installing something that endangers their customers.
If the gate meets requirements, they'll verify that. If it doesn't, Southern will have to install a gate that is safe. Checking this only makes it less likely that Southern will get away with saving money by installing something that endangers their customers.
I have checked again with Southern.
There will be times when a member of staff is present at the new gates - generally during morning and evening rush hours, as is happening currently with the "interim" arrangements. At other times, passengers can operate the gates themselves with a relevant ticket/Oystercard and the buzzer system can be used to summon staff to help if there is a problem.
By the time these gates are up and running, full use of Oystercards will be upon us. If the experience of tube and bus travel is anything to go by, virtually all passengers will switch to Oystercard - so the experience of getting tickets stuck in the machine will be very significantly reduced.
Now, frankly I am extremely happy with this arrrangement and I believe other passengers will be too. This popular campaign (which incidentally, extended far wider than just the Sydenham and Forest Hill Societies) was to gain ready access on both sides of the station for those passengers holding a relevant ticket. We have achieved that goal.
I have also talked to the engineer in charge of this project at the Waterman Group and he is absolutely confident that the gate will pass all health and safety requirements and accident emergency procedures, since it is identical to a number of other gates that the group has successfully installed at overground railway stations elsewhere around London.
If people wish to continue the campaign to have staff full-time at this gate (or in Bensonby's case to remove all gates everywhere) please continue the campaign. I won't be joining you; nor I expect will any other significant group of local passengers.
Can I also respectfully remind you that this is a planning application. Issues of staffing, tickets not working, tickets stuck in machines etc should be addressed to Southern Railways not the London Borough of Lewisham.
There will be times when a member of staff is present at the new gates - generally during morning and evening rush hours, as is happening currently with the "interim" arrangements. At other times, passengers can operate the gates themselves with a relevant ticket/Oystercard and the buzzer system can be used to summon staff to help if there is a problem.
By the time these gates are up and running, full use of Oystercards will be upon us. If the experience of tube and bus travel is anything to go by, virtually all passengers will switch to Oystercard - so the experience of getting tickets stuck in the machine will be very significantly reduced.
Now, frankly I am extremely happy with this arrrangement and I believe other passengers will be too. This popular campaign (which incidentally, extended far wider than just the Sydenham and Forest Hill Societies) was to gain ready access on both sides of the station for those passengers holding a relevant ticket. We have achieved that goal.
I have also talked to the engineer in charge of this project at the Waterman Group and he is absolutely confident that the gate will pass all health and safety requirements and accident emergency procedures, since it is identical to a number of other gates that the group has successfully installed at overground railway stations elsewhere around London.
If people wish to continue the campaign to have staff full-time at this gate (or in Bensonby's case to remove all gates everywhere) please continue the campaign. I won't be joining you; nor I expect will any other significant group of local passengers.
Can I also respectfully remind you that this is a planning application. Issues of staffing, tickets not working, tickets stuck in machines etc should be addressed to Southern Railways not the London Borough of Lewisham.
What would an example of this be? In an earlier post you referred to the tickets you get from thetrainline.com, however as far as I'm aware this website does not cater for Southern trains from Sydenham and hence is not relevant. Are there other non-standard tickets that you can purchase for travel on Southern trains?bensonby wrote:Out of interest what happens if one doesn't travel with a 'normal' ticket?