Old Wells Park

Falkor · Post by **Falkor** » 30 Oct 2006 21:45

I must say I always get confused whenever I see old photos of Wells Park... Familiar views are of this fancy wood bridge with 2 big ponds either side, yet I find it hard to compare with today's scene. This might sound like a stupid question, but has 1 of the ponds been reduced to a stream or something?

leaf · Post by **leaf** » 30 Oct 2006 22:10

gosh,that does look different!

Falkor · Post by **Falkor** » 30 Oct 2006 22:54

leaf wrote: gosh,that does look different!

Oh great, it's not just me then!

That makes me feel, a lot better..

I'm in danger of losing a lot of face here... I know all about the generating station up Springfield--for example--but yet I can't even figure out Wells Park!?

Steve Grindlay · Post by **Steve Grindlay** » 30 Oct 2006 23:41

I've put up some more pictures of Wells Park [here]. I agree with you Falkor, some of them are difficult to relate to the present park. By the way, the spire to the right of centre on your second picture is the spire that appears in the Longton Grove picture by Pissaro. Also, I'm pretty sure that the cottages at the exteme left of the picture are the small group that survive on the Wells Park side of Taylor's Lane

Falkor · Post by **Falkor** » 31 Oct 2006 00:58

Wow, Steve, what can I say!? I have to take my hat off to you there mate... That is too high level--you got those uploaded pretty fast as well... I'm not really clued up, but you must have some high speed broadband connection around the 4-8Mb range... Those photos are really sharp mate; the best quality I've seen them in, but that only counts for 3-4, including 1 I saw in the Coulter book and 1-2 on Ebay over the last year or so. I would never have guessed there was a set of NINETEEN postcards produced, nor showing such a wide array of different views. I've had a very quick look at them all without saving them just yet, and I'm already starting to piece the puzzle together in my mind... some truly amazing shots there... the whole place looked much tidier in them days you can tell, especially the stream nearest to Taylors Lane. I'm not only going to save all the photos, but also print them out to take along for the next walkabout. Thank you very much indeed; they are smashing!

Juwlz · Post by **Juwlz** » 31 Oct 2006 09:35

Thanks for those pics Steve - they're fascinating and the park looks lovely. I must be the only one that thinks Wells Park looks even better these days because the trees have grown a lot bigger. Plus nowadays its in colour

Greg Whitehead · Post by **Greg Whitehead** » 31 Oct 2006 11:52

Steve Grindlay wrote:I've put up some more pictures of Wells Park [here]. I agree with you Falkor, some of them are difficult to relate to the present park. By the way, the spire to the right of centre on your second picture is the spire that appears in the Longton Grove picture by Pissaro. Also, I'm pretty sure that the cottages at the exteme left of the picture are the small group that survive on the Wells Park side of Taylor's Lane

Steve,

I wasn't aware of another picture by Camille Pissarro. I have a sizeable print of The [Sydenham] Avenue and of Fox Hill, Upper Norwood by Pissarro...this other painting is new news - do you have more information please?

BTW - perhaps we ought to enhance the wikipedia listing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camille_Pissarro

It makes no mention of the fact that the 'Father' of the impressionist movement lived in and painted notable works of Sydenham. A man who was more than an influence on Monet, Renoir, Gaugin and Cezanne. Once more Sydenham's failure at self-promotion has ensured we're neatly airbrushed from history (if that's not too over-dramatic). Similarly, I was watching an hour long programme entitled the 200 year house with Simon Schama and it spent 15 minutes on the Crystal Palace - they conveniently stopped the piece after 'it' closed down in Hyde Park...it never, ever came to Sydenham as far as the BBC was concerned. Of course there's no such place as Crystal Palace, as Pat rightly states it was the "Crystal Palace at Sydenham" - but still.

Greg Whitehead · Post by **Greg Whitehead** » 31 Oct 2006 12:27

Although this is one of the best write-ups I've found - not like those clowns over at WoosterStock...

http://www.thatchandco.com/locations/Sydenham.htm

Falkor · Post by **Falkor** » 31 Oct 2006 14:07

I wasn't aware of another picture by Camille Pissarro. I have a sizeable print of The [Sydenham] Avenue and of Fox Hill, Upper Norwood by Pissarro...this other painting is new news - do you have more information please?

See the penultimate post (before your last one) in the following topic...
The Pissarro at Crystal Palace book includes all the sketches he did of Sydenham, but only a few of them were developed into paintings or something, like that Sydenham Avenue example.
Steve put up a better quality scan of the Longton Grove sketch--showing the house with the church spire, which was diaogonally opposite the house that guarded what was to become the entrance to Beaulieu Avenue--[here].
The house in question can also be seen from this old ariel photograph, which I need to get an upgrade of...

I see Steve has added a 20th photo of Wells Park! I'm still blown away by the quality of the Willow Way timber cottage photos myself... Before Willow Way/Walk was widened, there were all these other shops built in front of more timber cottages in the middle of Kirkdale... everything round upper sydenham was almost entirely timber based!

Here's a good shot from Steve's Wells Park series:

I believe this shows the houses--now all demolished--at the north-west and south-west of Wells Park?

Steve Grindlay · Post by **Steve Grindlay** » 31 Oct 2006 14:15

Juwlz wrote:I must be the only one that thinks Wells Park looks even better these days because the trees have grown a lot bigger. Plus nowadays its in colour

You're absolutely right, juwlz. Most of the postcards were taken from 1910 onwards, once the park had began to mature. [Here] is a picture taken just after it was opened, when it looked almost barren. I've added a caption which, I hope, explains something about the picture. There is another which I think might also interest you.

And for you, Greg, [here] are a couple of pictures which might explain the Pissarro reference. Another painting you might be interested is his view of [Lordship Lane station] from the footbridge in Sydenham Hill Woods (the original is in the Courtauld)

Steve Grindlay · Post by **Steve Grindlay** » 31 Oct 2006 14:20

Oh dear, I see you've beaten me to it, Falkor. I do like the Kirkdale picture, I haven't seen that before.

Greg Whitehead · Post by **Greg Whitehead** » 1 Nov 2006 10:36

I really love your old old aerial photographs Falkor.

I'm so glad they tore down those huge Victorian villas that lined Westwood Hill. I much prefer the concrete and pebbledashed 60's housing that sprung up in their place to 'improve' the area. I really do find grand, imposing, architecturally beautiful Victorian villas rather horrid and a bit of an eyesore. The corrupt politicians and council officers who placed these villas under compulsary order so that they could raze them to the ground in order to put up such delighful abodes ought to be heartily commended!

The only question is why on earth they weren't allowed to do the same with the other side of the road and Longton Avenue in the photograph!? I mean, it looks so ghastly it could almost be those disgusting areas such as Hampstead Heath or Barnes, maybe at a push Blackheath. I much prefer it when it resembles Croydon or Hackney as it does now when you ascend Westwood Hill and look to your right.

Falkor · Post by **Falkor** » 1 Nov 2006 12:45

This is from an article about an airship flight over London, published 17 September 1902. Charleville circus is prominent in the centre, and Wells Park is in the upper left. Note also the extraordinary houses in Crystal Palace Park Road (by John Norton, architect of Tyntesfield).

Wow, that's interesting! I desperately wanted to see a pre-60s ariel photo showing the generating station and local group of streets further north, but the ones at Lewisham Local Studies Centre only started from the 60s after the first wave of destruction had already occurred around this area.

Steve's scan is very good, extracting as much detail as possible from this low quality printed newspaper source. I'm pleased to see I can just about make out Edney Street, Fir Street, Plane Street and the generating station! It's also the best shot I've seen showing that mysterious blank plot of land beside Oaksford Avenue and the gardens of St. Mary's Oratory--note all the other surrounding buildings sticking out of the woodland that have not showed up in any close-up ground level photos I've seen. Wells Park looks very undeveloped with wide tracks curling through the vertical axis. Great view of Crystal Palace Park road and Charleville Circus!! Many thanks for sharing, Steve!

Are you aware of any photos taken of either the Tennis courts at Panmure Road or Longton Grove? And I've been wondering about this other photo that appeared on Ebay recently...

Greg Whitehead · Post by **Greg Whitehead** » 1 Nov 2006 14:31

I've been thinking about your picture Falkor...sorry, I just can't make out where it was. The closest plausible idea I had (now discounted) was that the double-fronted house back left of the picture might be one of the houses on Halifax Street - the car would therefroe be parked up on Willow way or the begining of Sydenham Park...

Nope, got me flummuxed. The building looks more like a train station though? That sign has got to be a clue - reminds me of the 'Go To Jail' sign on a Monopoly board.

Edit: Through search I was able to find out it's a Charabanc (I assume the car) and that it was taken in 1905.

Greg Whitehead · Post by **Greg Whitehead** » 1 Nov 2006 15:35

I stumbled across this also Falkor.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LEWISHAM-postcard ... dZViewItem

This would be the 'House of Curtains' today? Or The Cake Store? I've often said that the bulidings on Sydenham High Street are very fine, there's no doubting it's a handsome parade once your eye goes above street level (once you look above the gaudy signage and window dressing in the main). This postcard demonstrates it. I think I'll buy it.

Greg Whitehead · Post by **Greg Whitehead** » 1 Nov 2006 16:41

Greg Whitehead wrote:I really love your old old aerial photographs Falkor.

I'm so glad they tore down those huge Victorian villas that lined Westwood Hill. I much prefer the concrete and pebbledashed 60's housing that sprung up in their place to 'improve' the area. I really do find grand, imposing, architecturally beautiful Victorian villas rather horrid and a bit of an eyesore. The corrupt politicians and council officers who placed these villas under compulsary order so that they could raze them to the ground in order to put up such delighful abodes ought to be heartily commended!

The only question is why on earth they weren't allowed to do the same with the other side of the road and Longton Avenue in the photograph!? I mean, it looks so ghastly in that picture it could almost be those disgusting areas of London such as Hampstead Heath or Barnes, maybe at a push Blackheath. I much prefer it when it resembles Croydon or Hackney as it does now when you ascend Westwood Hill and look to your right.

Just to be clear, there's a large dollop of sarcasm in this post...

Steve Grindlay · Post by **Steve Grindlay** » 1 Nov 2006 16:49

Falkor, I'm pretty sure the charabanc picture has nothing to do with our Sydenham. It has cropped up on ebay several times over the past couple of years and I'm pretty sure that Sydenham and Co were publishers and booksellers in Bournemouth.

And Greg you're right, that is the House of Curtains corner. Five doors up you might be able to make out Sainsbury's; if not, [here's] a clearer version.

Falkor · Post by **Falkor** » 1 Nov 2006 17:14

Falkor, I'm pretty sure the charabanc picture has nothing to do with our Sydenham. It has cropped up on ebay several times over the past couple of years and I'm pretty sure that Sydenham and Co were publishers and booksellers in Bournemouth.

That's excellent...

I had a hunch it might be a different place, but didn't want to say anything in order to create a bit of intrigue; thanks for confirming my hunch, and with the precise details, too.

Sorry for misleading anyone...

This postcard demonstrates it. I think I'll buy it.

Greg, thanks to Steve, you don't need to buy that postcard anymore, unless you just want the cardboard!

You could always mail it to someone I suppose...

Steve Grindlay · Post by **Steve Grindlay** » 1 Nov 2006 18:00

I wouldn't recommend buying it anyway, Greg. Take a look at the bottom - it is a modern reproduction, and not very good quality.

BingBong · Post by **BingBong** » 2 Nov 2006 11:53

This local history thread is fascinating!

Do any of you know why Kelvin Grove is called Kelvin Grove? I've searched online but can only find stuff about the primary school.

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Old Wells Park

Old Wells Park