Sydenham/Dulwich Wells

Falkor · Post by **Falkor** » 19 Sep 2006 00:09

Around Wells Park/Road/Taylors Lane, where exactly were the famous wells located? Do any historical maps show the water? I saw an illustration of the old Green Dragon Inn with some people walking on a bridge--presumebly over one of the wells? How many wells were there? Did they include any of the streams/ponds at the bottom of Wells Park? In an 1871 map, I saw at the top of Springfield Rise, there appears to have been a pond in the middle of what was called Springfield Gardens; could this be part of the original wells or does it have anything to do with the name Springfield? I think this circle of water vanishes from the 1894 map, but an article about the old generating station nearby, mentions there being a sunken well near the site.

leaf · Post by **leaf** » 19 Sep 2006 10:19

hello falkor

i think there are wells/springs all around that area,not sure if all of thems whereabouts are known,there are subsidence problems in this area,also damp issues too,there are often bursts in the surrounding roads that arent just down to thames water!

Steve Grindlay · Post by **Steve Grindlay** » 19 Sep 2006 17:46

So many questions, falkor… I may be able to answer a few of them. For geological reasons underground water seeped to the surface along the slope of Sydenham Hill (indeed it still does, and the water company has tried to shirk responsibility by saying that as it is spring water it is not their fault).

In the 1640s it was claimed this spring water had healing properties. The fashionable came from London to drink it, and wells were dug into the water-table to ensure a regular supply. Several cottages were built, to provide a home for the well-keepers and shelter for the visitors. There is a suggestion that visitors were often unruly and drunk. You mentioned the Green Dragon. This was the most interesting of the cottages and was generally known as “Wells Cottage”. In an engraving of the 1780s, perhaps the one you remember, it is described as “The Dwelling of Alexander Roberts”. Amazingly, this cottage not only survived until 1941, when it was hit by a V1, but was occupied continuously by the same family. Alexander Roberts probably first occupied it in 1726, the year he was married in St Mary’s, Lewisham. Because it survived so long we know precisely where it was; it was at the point where Wells Park Road and Oaksford Avenue meet. The angle at the beginning of Oaksford Ave. is where the road had to go round the cottage. The other cottages were dotted around this junction.

Incidentally, wells were fairly common in the grounds of the larger houses, and essential until the 1850s when the reservoir was built on Sydenham Hill. I know of several wells still surviving in Upper Sydenham.

There is more to be said on the subject, but I'm aware that once I start, people's eyes start glazing over.

For the best resources, maps, pictures &c. you should try Lewisham Local Studies & Archives at:
http://tinyurl.com/aex8q

Greg Whitehead · Post by **Greg Whitehead** » 19 Sep 2006 18:15

Steve,

"people's eyes start glazing over"? Well...not mine !

A reservoir in Sydenham Hill and surviving wells in Upper Sydenham?... Do go on, please.

I will of course 'check out' the local resources you mention but I'd love to meet and pick your brains, failing that feel free to give further detail here.

Falkor · Post by **Falkor** » 19 Sep 2006 18:42

So many questions, falkor… I may be able to answer a few of them.

Thanks for your response, Steve!

For geological reasons underground water seeped to the surface along the slope of Sydenham Hill (indeed it still does, and the water company has tried to shirk responsibility by saying that as it is spring water it is not their fault).

You mean Sydenham Hill as in the entire area of Sydenham Hill Estate and upper half of Wells Park Road, rather than the road Sydenham Hill? I heard the rumour that spring water still leaks, including in the basement of some people's homes, but where exactly did these leaks occur? The book never gave an address, block or even a road.

This was the most interesting of the cottages and was generally known as “Wells Cottage”. In an engraving of the 1780s, perhaps the one you remember, it is described as “The Dwelling of Alexander Roberts”.

I didn't know this; cheers for the info!

Because it survived so long we know precisely where it was; it was at the point where Wells Park Road and Oaksford Avenue meet. The angle at the beginning of Oaksford Ave. is where the road had to go round the cottage.

I knew the position of the cottage, which you describe even better than my books, but where exactly were the wells? Did a bridge go over one of them?

Incidentally, wells were fairly common in the grounds of the larger houses, and essential until the 1850s when the reservoir was built on Sydenham Hill.

Right. There was one back garden well reportedly around Peak Hill area etc. What reservoir was built on "Sydenham Hill"? You mean the one for the Croydon Canal in Sydenham Park; wouldn't this have been built around the first decade of the 1800s? Or were the ponds in Wells Park artificially made?

I know of several wells still surviving in Upper Sydenham.

You do!? That's news to me... Are they anything to do with the ponds/stream at the bottom of Wells Park?

There is more to be said on the subject, but I'm aware that once I start, people's eyes start glazing over.

I don't need to hear the entire story, as my two Sydenham and Forest Hill books by Joan P. Alcock and John Coulter respectively describe most of this. In fact, I found out the best details of the old wells from a Crystal Palace book, which states there were about a dozen or so.

For the best resources, maps, pictures &c. you should try Lewisham Local Studies & Archives at:

Thanks for the advice, but which map(s) will show the location of these wells in relation to Wells Park Road? I would like to get an idea of how far apart they were, and if they went as north as Springfield Gardens or as south as the bottom of Wells Park. I also study the Crystal Palace, and by looking at historical maps, I can easily find the 13 Fountains and 3 Reservoirs, a small pond near where the Ranger's office stands, and a 580 foot Artesian Well that is now capped off under the gateway of the Ranger's offices.

Again, I ask, where exactly were these dozen or so wells? How far from the cottage were they?

Steve Grindlay · Post by **Steve Grindlay** » 19 Sep 2006 21:52

You mean Sydenham Hill as in the entire area of Sydenham Hill Estate and upper half of Wells Park Road

I mean Sydenham Hill as in the whole hill from Crystal Palace Parade to London Road, including the slope, ie the topographical feature. I understand that, because of impervious rock deep below the surface, water gathers and emerges as springs (this is a crude and probably inaccurate description, but is the best I can offer). It is important to distinguish between springs and wells; springs are natural and wells are man-made.

There is a valley that can be traced from the top of the hill, between Mountacre Close and Dome Hill Park (where there is a surprisingly deep cleft), across Longton Avenue, Wells Park (where the ponds were created shortly after the park was laid out in 1901), Taylors Lane, the allotments, Jews Walk, Kirkdale, Spring Hill (the foot of Peak Hill), and on towards the Pool River at Bell Green. Until drains were laid, groundwater, and water from the springs, would have drained from the hillside into this valley.

It is clear that over the 200 years or so the wells operated their fortunes fluctuated (mostly disreputable, certainly not to be compared with Tunbride or Epsom). Before piped water, sinking wells was fairly commonplace and I think it likely that wells were sunk and abandoned as demand changed. An old man, writing in 1878, could remember just one well, “a dirty pool and the water very nasty, which by degrees was unused and finally filled up”. This was the well beside Wells Cottage.

where exactly were the wells? Did a bridge go over one of them?

I know of no map which clearly marks the wells, only the cottages. Roque’s map of 1745 shows 7 cottages, but is not accurate enough to draw any conclusions. The OS map of 1799 is better (Lewisham Archives has a copies of both maps). This shows three cottages, including Wells Cottage. The other two were on what would now be the opposite corners of Taylors Lane. All I can say is that the wells would have been closely associated with these cottages. One, according to legend, was under the font of the demolished St Philip’s church.

I'm not sure about the bridge, another version of the print shows something more like a bench than a bridge - poetic licence, perhaps

I also study the Crystal Palace, and by looking at historical maps, I can easily find the 13 Fountains and 3 Reservoirs

By the 1860s, when maps of the scale of the Crystal Palace map you refer to were produced, the wells were already largely, if not completely, abandoned. The Crystal Palace Electric Supply Co, in Springfield, may have sunk their own well. More likely, as the site had previously been a brewery and needed lots water, the brewery sank the well.

Incidentally, the surviving wells are in the gardens of private houses in the Kirkdale area and nothing to do with Sydenham Wells.

I hope this more or less answers your questions.

Falkor · Post by **Falkor** » 19 Sep 2006 22:25

Thank you very much indeed for the clarification, Steve! How long have you been studying the history of Sydenham if you don't mind me asking? Were you also brought up in this area? You seem very knowledgeable on the local history... impressive!

Shame there's no reliable maps from the days of Sydenham's famous Medicinal Springs.

There is a valley that can be traced from the top of the hill, between Mountacre Close and Dome Hill Park (where there is a surprisingly deep cleft), across Longton Avenue, Wells Park (where the ponds were created shortly after the park was laid out in 1901), Taylors Lane, the allotments, Jews Walk, Kirkdale, Spring Hill (the foot of Peak Hill), and on towards the Pool River at Bell Green. Until drains were laid, groundwater, and water from the springs, would have drained from the hillside into this valley.

This must be the valley I briefly read about in a section on the history of Peak Hill; sounds fascinating!

Incidentally, the surviving wells are in the gardens of private houses in the Kirkdale area and nothing to do with Sydenham Wells.

So these wells wouldn't have anything to do with the famous dozen or so springs near the 3 cottages?

I hope this more or less answers your questions.

Pretty much, but what about the 1850s reservoir you spoke of? BTW, I saw a map showing part of the Sydenham Park reservoir stretching across kirkdale and the site of the doctor's surgery. Oh man, I need to do some more research...

Juwlz · Post by **Juwlz** » 20 Sep 2006 08:19

There is a valley that can be traced from the top of the hill, between Mountacre Close and Dome Hill Park (where there is a surprisingly deep cleft), across Longton Avenue, Wells Park (where the ponds were created shortly after the park was laid out in 1901), Taylors Lane, the allotments, Jews Walk, Kirkdale, Spring Hill (the foot of Peak Hill), and on towards the Pool River at Bell Green. Until drains were laid, groundwater, and water from the springs, would have drained from the hillside into this valley.

Isn't the upper part of this valley the precise place where currently the water springs out of the ground to form the ponds in wells park? If you walk around the pond at the top of Wells park you can hear the water gushing out from beneath some bushes. I assume the springing water has been encouranged into this position but other than that is a natural spring?

I also read somewhere that there was a spring under the site of the now demolished number 26 longton avenue, which must have been somewhere within 100 yards or so of this site?

Steve Grindlay · Post by **Steve Grindlay** » 20 Sep 2006 08:30

what about the 1850s reservoir you spoke of?

Sorry, falkor,I forgot about that. It was on the Dulwich side of Sydenham Hill, next to a lane called Rock Hill. The Lambeth Water Works constructed it in about 1858. It has recently been built over.

I have to say I'm thoroughly enjoying the pictures you're putting up

Steve Grindlay · Post by **Steve Grindlay** » 20 Sep 2006 08:49

Isn't the upper part of this valley the precise place where currently the water springs out of the ground to form the ponds in wells park?

Juwlz, I think that's very likely. I have a copy of the leaflet of the opening ceremony in 1901 which says: "Advantage has been taken of the natural undulations and the existing watercourses ... and was ornamented by a succession of small lakes and rivulets". However, I don't believe the story that the stream is a miniature replica of the Rhine, in recognition of the influential German population of Sydenham.

Pat Trembath · Post by **Pat Trembath** » 20 Sep 2006 10:15

The stream in Wells Park is actually man-made and there is a stop-cock which feeds this. Local children (mine included) knew exactly where the stop-cock is located!

There was a spring under 26 Longton Avenue which regularly used to flood the cellar. Number 26 was just to the left hand side of the park gates as you enter the "High Hills" area (the area with the stream).

Juwlz · Post by **Juwlz** » 20 Sep 2006 12:29

Pat

'scuse my ignorance, so do you mean to say the water supply to the ponds is from the water mains and not a natural source?

Pat Trembath · Post by **Pat Trembath** » 20 Sep 2006 17:06

Steve Grindlay · Post by **Steve Grindlay** » 20 Sep 2006 18:26

I'm not sure that I agree, Pat. A land use map of 1800 shows four separate streams, fed by springs, flowing down the hill across what was then Sydenham Common. When main drains were laid in the 1860s these streams were culverted, but occasionally they are uncovered. One of the streams follows the valley I mentioned earlier in this thread, and you will remember a couple of years ago that a brick culvert was exposed in Kirkdale. This culvert contained that stream.

Another stream flowed in the valley between Thorpewood Avenue and Derby Hill, crossing Dartmouth Road at the bend by the pools. When the pools were built, about 8 feet below ground level at the back, this culverted stream was exposed. Today it flows through a hole in the wall retaining the land behind, and trickles into a drain.

Given that there were natural sources of water in the area I think it possible that these were exploited when laying out the stream. There may well be means of controlling the flow but that could be necessary whatever the source.

Pat Trembath · Post by **Pat Trembath** » 21 Sep 2006 19:20

I think we can agree to disagree, Steve!

The stream that follows the valley down from Dome Hill Park on top of Sydenham Hill flows through a garden in Longton Avenue and rises in the park near to the willows in the dog exercising area of the park.

The willow area is a damp area, the bamboo grove and the swamp plants were planted to soak up the water,as was the ocean redwood (sequoia sempervirens) given to the park by the Sydenham Society in 1994 following a public subscription (remember "plant a tree for ninety-three, plant one more for ninety-four"?). Water cress also grows naturally in this area

Despite attempts of Lewisham in the 1990's to put it into a drain the stream regularly reappears - it never freezes, even when there is snow on the ground and, proof that it is a spring, the water flows.

This stream follows the natural valley down by the children's playground, through the Wells Park housing estate. The valley continues down to Jews Walk which floods in heavy rain, and across Kirkdale at Collingtree Road exactly where we saw the brick culvert, exposed when British Gas laid new mains a couple of years ago.

It may be that originally the stream in Wells Park High Hills area was originally fed by natural means. Nowadays the water is in a manmade concrete culvert and is fed by water which comes from the mains. It does not have a natural flow.

The stopcock for the mains water has been in situ since at least the early 1970's, which was when my children first discovered its existence!

Falkor · Post by **Falkor** » 21 Sep 2006 21:42

This topic has turned out to be quite informative! I've been made more aware about the topography of Sydenham Heights and 2/4 streams, including one that flowed from around Dome Hill Park down to Bell Green, via Spring Hill, which I had briefly read about in a chapter on the history of Peak Hill.

It sounds like we have 2 slightly different theories--put forward by Steve and Pat--on the course taken by the prominent stream specifically between Longton Avenue and Jews Walk, providing evidence on whether the ponds in Wells Park are fed by the water mains or a natural source.

The stream that follows the valley down from Dome Hill Park on top of Sydenham Hill flows through a garden in Longton Avenue and rises in the park near to the willows in the dog exercising area of the park.

Is that the garden of the same number 26 house of Longton Avenue that got flooded by any chance? Where exactly is the dog excerising area, as I see people walking their dogs throughout the entire park, without much respect to any area. Are you saying the stream rose uphill?

The willow area is a damp area, the bamboo grove and the swamp plants were planted to soak up the water,as was the ocean redwood (sequoia sempervirens) given to the park by the Sydenham Society in 1994 following a public subscription (remember "plant a tree for ninety-three, plant one more for ninety-four"?). Water cress also grows naturally in this area

This sounds like the swamp I actually fell inside when I was young! Being more on the south side of the park, wouldn't the old stream pass underneath the new stream?

This stream follows the natural valley down by the children's playground, through the Wells Park housing estate.

Which playground do you mean? The play area with the swings and 3 filled in pools (biggest one was originally a pond) or the square playground next to the Church Hall? Steve believes the stream travels through the allotments (there are 2 of them along that same line), but you believe the stream/valley travels through the Wells Park housing estate? Would you say it's more Peters Path level or further uphill to Bradford Close level?

For geological reasons underground water seeped to the surface along the slope of Sydenham Hill (indeed it still does, and the water company has tried to shirk responsibility by saying that as it is spring water it is not their fault).

The fashionable came from London to drink it, and wells were dug into the water-table to ensure a regular supply.

I mean Sydenham Hill as in the whole hill from Crystal Palace Parade to London Road, including the slope, ie the topographical feature. I understand that, because of impervious rock deep below the surface, water gathers and emerges as springs (this is a crude and probably inaccurate description, but is the best I can offer).

I'm still a bit unsure as to exactly where the famous medicinal springs were located and how far apart they were, although I realise this may be impossible to know because of the inaccuracy of maps in those days. Would it have had anything to do with the aforementioned natural stream/valley? At Crystal Palace, they had to dig 580 feet down to find water! At Peak Hill, right beside Spring Hill, the garden well there was apparently around 500 feet. Therefore, the entire Sydenham hill surely cannot be streamed everywhere with naturally occuring springs close to the surface, except near the 4 valleys?

A land use map of 1800 shows four separate streams, fed by springs, flowing down the hill across what was then Sydenham Common.

Where can we see this map? Is it illustrated in any books? I only remember seeing the one stream in the Sydenham Common map with the corner missing, but this was very basic.

Anyway, thank you for everyone's contribution to this topic; your time is much appreciated!

Falkor · Post by **Falkor** » 21 Sep 2006 22:22

There was a spring under 26 Longton Avenue which regularly used to flood the cellar. Number 26 was just to the left hand side of the park gates as you enter the "High Hills" area (the area with the stream).

Sorry, I missed this part. I don't know 26 Longton Avenue, so I don't know which gates you mean either, but I'm sure Greg and myself will find it on our walkabout. The other landmarks you mentioned were the damp willow area (I assumed south of the park, but maybe you meant uphill north; I'm not familiar with "High Hills" either) and children's playground (there's another one near the sandpit). Just trying to join the dots together...

Greg Whitehead · Post by **Greg Whitehead** » 22 Sep 2006 11:56

Should be a good walk Falkor. Plenty of ground to cover !

Anyone else keen to join? If so PM myself or Falkor.

The fledgeling 'Upper/Lower and Sydenham Hill rambling society' perhaps?!

Pat Trembath · Post by **Pat Trembath** » 22 Sep 2006 15:31

Steve and I have had a long chat about the various springs in and around Wells Park. We have agreed to have a walkabout in the near future referring to some old maps of the area.

Steve will be posting details of these maps which mark water courses in 1849 and 1916. We leave it to those interested to make up their own minds as to where the natural springs in the area run.

With regard to the watercourses within the park (the streams and the lakes) I agree with Steve that these follow the lines of the natural landscape. Maybe in wet weather the stream has some spring water, but during the rest of the year the levels need to be topped up using the stop cock, and Glendale, who manage the park for Lewisham, get a pretty hefty water bill from Thames water

Greg Whitehead · Post by **Greg Whitehead** » 22 Sep 2006 15:54

Giles and I were thinking weekend after next. We had yet to decide which day. Our plan was for he and I to do the walk mid-afternoon.

I'll try to make contact early part of next week?

Thanks Pat

Greg

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Sydenham/Dulwich Wells

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