Lewisham planning 400 flats for Sydenham Road

[TeaAndCake]

In case people aren’t aware, Lewisham Council are planning 4 separate developments for Sydenham Road under their “Local Plans” initiative. This will provide a total of 393 homes (mainly flats). Here is a link to the full local proposal, which took some finding as there are no links from their main community or planning webpages. https://s3-eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/comm ... 4oAyHLYess

There is also a link to the consultation, which strangely is not on their main website either but located here https://lewishamlocalplan.commonplace.is/about . It's almost like they don't want this information to be easily found.

[RJM]

I thought it wasn't that they're actually planning them at the moment but that those are sites which have been identified for potential development. Presumably some of them are privately owned and the sellers won't want to give them up, one of the sites is the former Co-op - hasn't that just been sold to be a gym? I assumed the idea was that they're saying they'd be happy for developers to buy them and that this is what they could do with the site.

Most of their development sites around Sydenham/Bell Green/Southend Lane appear to be supermarkets, so I don't know where they think we're going to shop.

[TeaAndCake]

None of this will happen immediately, but the businesses there at the moment will be leasing the properties. Once the planning has be granted in principle, I'm sure the landowners will be more than happy to give notice to those businesses on site and cash in by building a huge number of small flats.

[Growsydenham]

Precisely - this is purely a scoping exercise identifying where houses could in theory go over the next 20 years. All would need subsequent planning permission, and it would depend on the land owner wanting to develop in the first place. 400 new homes over 20 years isn't a big number, but in reality it would be a fraction of that which gets built.

Besides, it seems perfectly sensible that we fit new housing around the high street and near the station. It would be good for supporting local shops, good for cutting down car use and good for young people who need homes. And given people dont like building new tall towers, or on fields, it's the best place for them.

[JRW]

I'm baffled they didn't list the car wash / former petrol station. It is both an eyesore and a potential environmental issue. It (and the one which is now the Istanbul mini market next to the Alfred) closed when the Euro regulations on fuel tanks were upgraded, and their non-compliant tanks were never removed. They should have been thoroughly cleaned on closure, but who knows whether they did?! If not, the decaying tanks could be leeching pollution into the water table.

Surely this site should have been top of the list?

[Growsydenham]

I'm baffled they didn't list the car wash / former petrol station. It is both an eyesore and a potential environmental issue. It (and the one which is now the Istanbul mini market next to the Alfred) closed when the Euro regulations on fuel tanks were upgraded, and their non-compliant tanks were never removed. They should have been thoroughly cleaned on closure, but who knows whether they did?! If not, the decaying tanks could be leeching pollution into the water table.

Surely this site should have been top of the list?

Great idea. One to suggest to the consultation? I expect they'd welcome any further sites to identify. It's a crazy use of high street frontage that could be given over to housing/retail.

[stuart]

Do you mean the site that includes Knighton Park Motors? It would be bad to lose that facility. It's a service you can't get online or through any of the franchise garages.

Stuart

[JRW]

I am sure that any development could incorporate them, as they are a highly valued local service. There's no reason why we should have to let the rest of the site lay fallow, though.

[GLOBAL THINKER]

Hardly any mention of Lower Sydenham in the grand plan! Not sure why Lewisham are pursuing this type of development agenda when the world has changed so dramatically in the last year. Interesting article in the Guardian on what is possible with a bit of creative thinking and the recognition that high streets will never be the same again.

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesig ... igh-street

I live in hope that Lewisham don't spend millions going down the wrong path.....

[Growsydenham]

We all know the Sydenham Society is generally opposed to new homes, but I was rather baffled by the message in its latest newsletter.

Question: Why should I be interested in Lewisham’s new Local Plan?

Answer: Because it could mean the shutting down of some of Sydenham's best businesses including The Dolphin.


The council is preparing a new Local Plan, which will help shape decisions about planning, transport and investment in the borough for the next 20 years. To look at all the background information, and to have your say, go to: lewishamlocalplan.commonplace.is

1. Vitally important in the Local Plan is how you categorise or "zone" local areas of the high street.

2. Lewisham's future Local Plan intends to zone a large chunk east of the junction with Mayow Road and Sydenham Road and give it a "dual use" capability - to continue as a commercial business or be turned over to housing.

3. This would give the owners of the sites the choice on whether to continue renting to existing businesses (the Audi garage or The Dolphin, for example) or to turn it into a site with 168 residential units.

4. The area to be designated is shown above. It includes the Audi Garage, The Dolphin, Enterprise Car and Van Hire, Stephen Mears Funeral Director, Pizza A Go Go, the Fish and Chip shop, the Scope charity shop and Sydenham Kebab.

All of these are strong viable businesses. The temptation for the owner of the land under these conditions is to grab the money for housing and shut down viable local businesses, many of whom have operated successfully from this site for decades.


As part of the consultation process, the following online sessions have been organised:
Tuesday 16th February 5.30pm-7pm, Green Infrastructure and Environmental Sustainability
Wednesday 17th February 5.30pm-7pm, Housing
Tuesday 23rd February 5.30pm-7pm, Infrastructure (Community/Transport)
All sessions will take place online. For details of how to register go to:
lewishamlocalplan.commonplace.is/proposals/online-events

The closing date for comments is 11 April 2021.

By all means ask the council to exclude the Dolphin from the plans — although never in a million years would anyone approve its demolition anyway, given it is such a fine building.

But really - the row of one-storey shops next door is absolutely ideal for a mix of housing on top and shops below, like the rest of the high street. Are we really going to oppose that because we think the kebab shop and the pizza takeaway are some of “sydenham’s best businesses”? It seems like a silly excuse.

[RJM]

The plan already says

Development must not adversely impact character or amenity of the public house within the site, which is locally listed.

And

• An assessment should be carried out to determine which buildings should be retained and those that may be more suitable for redevelopment. The locally listed Dolphin public house and garden must be retained, and development must conserve and enhance its historic significance.
• The design of development should respond positively to the existing residential properties surrounding the site, particularly within the Sydenham Thorpes Conservation Area to the west.

So the pub isn't at risk, that's a slightly alarmist statement from SydSoc.

[Dartmouth/Willow Way]

Hi everyone,

I have been following this thread with great interest this last week and have just registered as I would like to bring to your attention what is planned for Willow Way/ Dartmouth Rd off Kirkdale.

I have lived and worked in this part of Sydenham for the last 30 years.

For those not familiar Lewisham Council have a Depot off Willow Way which has lied dormant and gone to waste for many years. It should have been put to better use long ago.

Lewisham Council, as part of their Local Plan, not only intend to build on this land but also all around it. They want to purchase the local business premises, with or without Freeholders consent, along both sides of Willow Way, Willow Business Park, Church Hall which fronts Sydenham Park, Dartmouth Service Station and the Bricklayers Arms Pub's car park.

Here is a link to their report.

https://lund.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2 ... to-LBL.pdf


Actually this report does not show the full extent of the development as it only shows one side of Willow Way and does not show Willow Business Park or the Church Hall. The full area is much larger.

If anyone cares to walk down Willow Way now they will see a Yellow Planning Notice on a lamp post with a map of the full area for development.

I think you can see from the scaled model of the development (page 17) just how huge it is. It dwarfs the Bricklayers Arms Public House which is the white block at the apex of the site. To me it looks like a complete over development, bordering on a high rise estate, surely not what is needed.

Sure homes are needed but on this scale. Also from my understanding there wont be many businesses left. Local businesses employing local people, paying local taxes for local services is a vital requirement. Sure there will be a few live/work spaces but not everyone can work from home.

I have it on good authority that the Pub, The Bricklayers Arms will not survive ( if it gets through Covid!) without its off street parking, which is vital for its employees, deliveries and customers. The pub is surrounded by double yellow lines and a bus stop with a general lack of parking in the vicinity. The Pub does not intend to sell its car park but Lewisham have included it in their plans.

Also Dartmouth Service Station next door which is an MOT Station as well as Car Servicing and Repairs and has a lot of local customers will be no longer as it will have to make way for the development. The owner of this site and Business has never been approached by Lewisham regarding these plans, although on their report they say ALL Stakeholders have been consulted. The owner has no intention of selling and losing his business but he maybe forced to.

From talking to some local residents and workers this proposed development is starting to cause a lot of concern.

Any comments appreciated.

[marymck]

Hi Dartmouth Road/Willow Way

I think you'll find that's part of a really old report that was prepared as an exercise by Kingston University students, under their tutor architect Andrew Budd who used to live in Sydenham. It was a student exercise but presented to Lewisham, oh it must be about 10 years ago now, with the idea of sparking discussions about the derelict Willow Way depot.

I'm personally very strongly in favour of retaining the site as part of the Local Employment Area and think Lewisham needs to promote the use of the site that way. There are some great businesses there that we should celebrate. Mixed use site designation would price out businesses imo. Plus residents could (and do) complain about noise from industrial use, which I find very unfair. But there are other opinions and Lewisham really are wasting this publicly owned asset. At least this document coul have sparked some discussion but Lewisham just sat on it.

When I raised the question of the depot recently with a Lewisham Councillor he told me that Willow Way won't be used for housing as it doesn't meet Lewisham's financial assessment criteria for small sites. He hadn't heard about the students' study. How did you come across it?

[Pally]

High Streets need to change. Housing is needed! One good thing that could come out of the last year is NOT returning to the status quo and some imaginative thinking on development for a new way.

Arguments against development because it happens to be where a "best husiness" is are short sighted and unimaginative ...and fill me with despair that opportunities in Sydenham for good change to meet new needs will be knocked on the head yet again .... !! A "best business" can relocate ....as part of a bigger picture approach to the long term development if the area!!

[buzzbee]

In terms of KP Motors and the car wash, the guy who runs the garage says he actually owns the site so it's not an issue of him leasing the land for his business. He actually leases to the car wash - any building on that site would require a handsome pay off for him.

[JRW]

Excellent result!

[simon]

In terms of KP Motors and the car wash, the guy who runs the garage says he actually owns the site so it's not an issue of him leasing the land for his business. He actually leases to the car wash - any building on that site would require a handsome pay off for him.

Kevin is good guy who ran the business with his brother. So glad he's staying there.
PS the car wash is one of the best around IMO

[Clovers]

The plan already says

Development must not adversely impact character or amenity of the public house within the site, which is locally listed.

So the pub isn't at risk, that's a slightly alarmist statement from SydSoc.

What else should we expect from the "Sydenham Society".... apposed to change in an already varied and inconsistent area...

Anyway, the change to that area could bring much needed greenery to the area and that greenery take some of the traffic pollution away.

[monkeyarms]

By all means ask the council to exclude the Dolphin from the plans — although never in a million years would anyone approve its demolition anyway, given it is such a fine building.

I think demolition of any building should be resisted on environmental grounds. I need to look at the Local Plan and think carefully about responding to it, but the environmental footprint of construction lies largely in, well, the construction! Retaining the core of the building wherever possible causes far fewer CO2 emissions, so looking at retention, extension, interior redesign etc is always preferable. Any demolition should really be a last resort.

I'll be interested to read how much building energy and eco footprints are mentioned in the local plan. Any new developments should aim to be low or zero carbon, both in operational and embodied energy; it's irresponsible to do otherwise.

Also, planning should be long-term: looking at what our needs will be in 50 years' time, not now.
What will car use be like then? How badly does Sydenham need a large park near Lidl? Will our children really need/want a car dealership? Could conversion of retail units to residential actually be a good thing, if it had to be done well? I mean, we have a very long high street and perhaps we should face the fact that that length cannot sustain retail units all the way along.

I actually like some of Sydenham's recent high street housing; it looks well designed to me.

[Pally]

"Could conversion of retail units to residential actually be a good thing, if it had to be done well? I mean, we have a very long high street and perhaps we should face the fact that that length cannot sustain retail units all the way along"

I absolutely agree with this. I am so tired of seeing endless "Save our High Street" headlines which inevitably are followed by empty arguments for maintaining things as they have always been, ignoring the fact that that approach results in empty retail sites, boarded up shops, small businesses going to the wall and as ever a shortage of housing!! A bigger picture approach looking to what is needed NOW and into the future would surely bring about a better outcome!