Anybody clap last night?

[stuart]

Our street was very enthusiastic in the original "Clap for NHS" back last year. And eerily quiet last night. Why?

Well, I for one, didn't feel comfortable being told to do so by our PM. Is that just because i'm not a great fan of this government? Maybe. But had the last election gone the other way I think others would have felt as I did. That's the point - our politics is designed to be divisive. Banging saucepans for the NHS or against Burma's military campaign is a free expression of the people who are rising above that to send a message tto each other and to those in control.

Was this repeated in the rest of Sydenham? Was it a misjudgement? I guess we all felt inspired by Capt'n Tom Moore for what he did. I wonder how his family feel about us who didn't clap? And as for the proposed statue. Is putting Sir Tom on a pedestal the wrong message? Naming an NHS hospital after him would seem, to me, a more fitting tribute to the money he raised for the NHS.

I agree with what Robin said over on se23.life that the exploitation of Sir Tom by the media and politicians - many of whom instituted cuts in the NHS which is why he felt the money was needed - is not good.

Stuart

[Robin Orton]

Thanks for your support, Stuart. SE23.life has now sent me to the naughty step because I suggested that Captain (Colonel?) Sir Tom was being exploited by the Prime Minister for p*l*t*c*l purposes. They crack down very fiercely over there if you suggest that a particular topic may have a p*l*t*c*l dimension. P*l*t*cs is a realm of human life whose existence they do not permit us to recognise. This is, I think, because they believe it's 'divisive' . Quite right, it is. That's because we live in a liberal democracy and are allowed (aren't we?) to have different views and argue about them. However...

If I'd not been cut off in my prime, I'd have totally accepted that Capt Tom might well have been a 'lovely man' but challenged the characterisation of him as 'heroic.' No doubt it's pretty challenging for a ninety-nine old Zimmer frame user to walk round his garden a hundred times. But to suggest that this merits a knighthood, an honorary colonelcy, flags at half mast in Downing Street, a national clap, a commemorative statue or a plaque in Westminster Abbey (there are Press campaigns already) strikes me a devaluing of the currency of heroism.

Like you, I was an enthusiastic supporter of the 'Clap for carers' campaign back in whenever it was. But now the whole thing has been wrapped in the Union Jack and bolted on to things like WWII nostalgia, I've had enough.

[stuart]

I note another divisive post was snuck in after the thread had been closed to everybody else. Your post was removed after I commented above which is confusing for people who might want to read it. Just for the record this is the naughty stuff you posted:

Clap For Captain Sir Tom Moore & Health Workers
Date:04/02/2021 08:19
Author:@robin.orton robin.orton

In my view all this Captain Tom stuff is totally ridiculous. Quite apart from the fact that it’s being politically exploited by the Prime Minister. It reminds me of the national hysteria when Princess Diana died…

But returning to topic - did other people clap on your street?

Stuart

[JGD]

We clapped for the NHS every time to the last night - but by then we began to sense it had been hijacked by our populist PM.

This time, community clapping was bereft of people being quite so willing to engage and probably for the same reasons as we began to lose our will to engage last time - because a cheap-shot PM effectively devalued the marking of the man's passing by projecting the idea as his own and urging us to do it at his behest.

A good PM must learn that words matter and it is important to know when to speak and when to remain silent.

Our putative PM failed us once more.

Captain Sir Tom Moore was a man who achieved inestimably great things in the whole of his life.

He will slip from our headlines soon enough but I suspect it will be along time before he slips from our memories and we forget his great achievements.

[Parker1970]

There was no clapping where I live at all. Though considering it was only suggested 48 hours beforehand, many may not have seen it. My mum for example avoids the news now. I watch the news far less than I used to. Doom and Gloom is outside my window... and that's all the news is these days

[Robin Orton]

In answer to Stuart's specific question, I didn't hear any clapping in my street, but didn't open my front door to check.

[vbsydenham]

Nothing on my street in the people's republic.

I think the main reason is people are just heartily sick of it all by this point. I don't think it is any particular reflection on Boris Johnson or this Government, both of which remain bafflingly popular in England.

[The Lady]

I didn't clap as It feels too contrived now. I also agree that it would be far more fitting to name a hospital ward, or the likes, after Captain Tom.
Instead of clapping for the NHS,I believe people should rather petition for better pay conditions, or at the very least just follow the restriction rules.

[alywin]

No doubt it's pretty challenging for a ninety-nine old Zimmer frame user to walk round his garden a hundred times. But to suggest that this merits a knighthood, an honorary colonelcy, flags at half mast in Downing Street, a national clap, a commemorative statue or a plaque in Westminster Abbey (there are Press campaigns already) strikes me a devaluing of the currency of heroism.

The currency of "heroism" had already been greatly devalued, as had - no reflection on Captain Sir Tom - the awarding of knighthoods/damehoods. To my mind, the rot at least partly set in when they started being granted for e.g. "just" winning an Olympic gold medal for your country (I think Dame Kelly Holmes may have been the first?), rather than as a retrospective reflection at the end of a sports career. Then once one person had been awarded one, everyone had to get the same treatment, for fairness, and you get all these OTT campaigns in the press as a result. Plus, of course, there's the whole corrupt side of those which are awarded for political favours and the like, which we won't go into here ...

No sign of a clap around here that I could see, but then I wasn't aware it had been suggested.

[MagmaTimes]

Only a slow clap for Boris Johnson from me

[Nigel]

I think people are sick of the fetishising of the NHS and that’s the main reason why the clapping stopped .
Without doubt there are some exceptional people working in the NHS but like all organisations there are soke poor performing and decidedly unheroic people too.

Someone in the Guardian today thought it was very unfair that Johnson was being praised for the success of the vaccination programme - surely that is no further off the mark than the pant-wettingly absurd logic that holds Johnson responsible for everything bad happening during the pandemic?

Although reality and reasonableness are unlikely to taint the the dreary Bolshevik type anti Johnson torrent , it could be that realism has crept in to how we see the NHS ?

[stuart]

Not me. I give a silent clap of thanks to the NHS every day - particularly for the brilliant way they are rolling out the vaccination programme. To which I would add Kate Bingham and her people for getting them the stuff to do it.

And good to hear from you again, did you clap for Capt'n Tom?
Stuart

[Robin Orton]

Although reality and reasonableness are unlikely to taint the the dreary Bolshevik type anti Johnson torrent...

I think the point you are, for some reason, failing to appreciate, Nigel, is that Mr Johnson is a truly awful person. That is why people don't like him very much. Nothing to do with Bolshevism (whatever that was - before my time, I'm afraid.)

[mosy]

No-one here clapped if a deafening silence is anything to go by. I was wholly on board with clapping for the NHS, being previously unsung heroes who were suddenly faced with a 24/7 onslaught including being poorly equipped and an unenviable degree of anguish to cope with. Plus all other brave front liners.

Captain Tom did good yet had already gained almost worldwide recognition for his laudable effort.

However, It seems strange to be asked by our PM to clap for someone who at 99 felt that more charitable support was needed for services that should be being provided through taxes paid by everyone, yet for ill judged reasons have been cut or scrapped and money often squandered elsewhere. I imagine Johnson thought that people couldn't clap and moan at the same time. Epic fail if so.

[Nigel]

Robin
you are without doubt, hilarious, only question remaining , intentionally or unintentionally ?
I think your argument , if you can call it that ("Mr Johnson is a truly awful person") is definitely no better than the Orange Man Bad stuff we've had to listen to for years .

I think it was the sage Stuart that reminded us to "play the man, not the homosexual" , (avoid ad hominem
comments) but that doesn't seem to apply. I think the nonsense about how appreciating the NHS being tainted by patriotism is yet another example of how left leaning liberals simply can't bear the notion of the UK getting anything right . I think the awful Miriam Margolis is now the cheerleader for those people that simply need to hate Johnson and not don't care how many they have to hate along with him . And Robin, Bolshevism was definitely not before your time .

[JGD]

I think the nonsense about how appreciating the NHS being tainted by patriotism is yet another example of how left leaning liberals simply can't bear the notion of the UK getting anything right .

Nigel, let me echo Stuart's words of welcome to you on your return to STF.

It would seem never say never applies here, once more and again - even.

But to whom do you refer. Left leaning liberals?

Are the circles you move in populated greatly by persons of such poor principles as to hold these views about the propensities of the UK.

And if so, how many? If it is of a frequency that causes you distress, you are to be pitied.

Never yet met one with such negative views, myself. But then I never say never.

[Robin Orton]

I think the nonsense about how appreciating the NHS being tainted by patriotism is yet another example of how left leaning liberals simply can't bear the notion of the UK getting anything right .

I am a left-leaning liberal (most of the time) and also a proud and patriotic Englishman. I think this country has got lots of things right. Electing a party led by Mr Johnson into power was not one of them, however.

[stuart]

The problem is too many were not convinced by the alternatives at the time. And who can blame them?

I'm convinced Jeremy would have run Boris hard in incompetence at understanding, taking and sustaining difficult decisions in an area politicians of any hue are not well trained in. Or even our current civil service?

That's the reason the NHS, Public Health experts and the pharmaceutical industry have shone out mitigating the s**t created by politicians. It's sick when politicians try and trade on these successes and Capt'n Tom to cover their self-inflicted disasters.

It's even weirder to find politicians suddenly sprouting union jacks in their living rooms for Zoom interviews. Am I 'un-patriotic' because I only have this print of The Avenue, Sydenham painted by a French immigrant displaced by rather aggressive Prussians? Should I have stuck to Turner or Constable?



Stuart

[JGD]

I'm convinced Jeremy would have run Boris hard in incompetence at understanding, taking and sustaining difficult decisions in an area politicians of any hue are not well trained in. Or even our current civil service?

That's the reason the NHS, Public Health experts and the pharmaceutical industry have shone out mitigating the s**t created by politicians. It's sick when politicians try and trade on these successes and Capt'n Tom to cover their self-inflicted disasters.

It's even weirder to find politicians suddenly sprouting union jacks in their living rooms for Zoom interviews. Am I 'un-patriotic' because I only have this print of The Avenue, Sydenham painted by a French immigrant displaced by rather aggressive Prussians? Should I have stuck to Turner or Constable?

I concur with your view on the comparable incompetencies of Johnson and Corbyn. We might even agree that their leadership failings have been arrived at by very different routes. Directly comparable to that of Trump in the US.

It is hard to resist the sense that Trump is certainly a Putin "buy" - and great it was for Putin because it was at a price that was a fraction of the cost of trying to outspend the US militarily and technically.

Putin's actions through Trump have had an indelible impact on US democracy. The roots of division have a long tail into US history but rarely since pre-Civil War years has division and the perpetrators of it made such rapid progress in under a generation.

Does Putin hold a full hand? Has he invested in corrupting UK democracy using the same principles of division. In both major parties too?

Tories split and grasping, have bought into and installed the worst string of three PM's in UK history. Each premiership chipping away further at any sense of democratic unity.

With a result that shows the country has a divide across its politics, its direction of travel as a United Kingdom and its domain whereby, arguably, the health and wealth of our populace has never been more separated.

Flag waving patriotism in peace-time? As a nation we once would have recognised that for what it was - nothing more than a haven for incompetent scoundrels.

The Labour Party has not been far behind and may also be subject of Putin-led machinations.

Has the new leadership the resolve and strength of will to change its own course and become a party who can move from Opposition to Government?

[stuart]

I concur with your view on the comparable incompetencies of Johnson and Corbyn.

Which means you can't pin this debacle on Putin. I wouldn't trust any politician anywhere that doesn't have a grasp of public health emergencies or doesn't let those with the expertise to drive the response. It seems to have worked out well for those that did whether left or right, democratic or authoritarian.

Which leaves this country in a bit of a mess. The government and the media has bet the farm that the current vax programme will pull 'em out of our world beating hole. It might if managed cautiously. Let's hope Boris has learnt his lessons and see the CRG for what they are. If he does I'll clap - and not slowly.

Stuart