The future of Sydenham Markets

[Tim Lund]

I just saw a news item about the management of a council run market in my home town - Oxford - being handed over to private enterprise, which got me thinking about the future of markets here.

The obvious difference is scale - here we have just a few scattered pocket parks - so I don't suppose the operators involved there - Groupe Géraud, LSD Promotions - would be interested, or some rivals - Marketplace - who I found from googling complaining about another local council - in Stratford upon Avon - awarding a contract to Géraud. But it means there is a competition out there.

But at our smaller scale, there are still companies and individuals who might be interested - such as Project Shine, which works with the Norwood Feast, and who I guess are three individuals - Mssrs Griffin, Kendall & Cox? - who run the Horniman Farmers Market. That works - and the competition it provided is why I believe, very sensibly, the Forest Hill Society gave up trying to run its own Food Markets. So something better than what we have now from SEE3 should be possible, where from threads such as this, the marketing and promotion is clearly not satisfactory.

Just checked to make sure I'm not talking through my hat.

At the Venner Square, there is a poster up for an event on 5th July.
Ditto Station Approach square - poster for 5th July.

Says it all really.

Just to say there are the pink stripped posters in the two town centre notice boards - near the station and The Sydenham Centre. I have previously put up 30 of these posters and it was still in the Coop yesterday. The last Sydenham Assembly Newsletter delivered door to door in the ward had the poster on a quarter of the page - print run of 7,000. The smaller pink cards have been handed out and I took a batch down to the Arts Festival and they were on the info table at the Livesey last night. Lewisham markets have on the web site and have retweeted etc.

Of course we need more volunteers to put up posters, hand out cards, flyers into school bags to remind everyone it is the 2nd Saturday. So don't be shy in getting in touch with SEE3 to offer some help. If you want to help washing down the stalls we are at Venner Square this morning from 9am.

It is insane that someone such as Chris Best, with all her other responsibilities as a LB Lewisham Cabinet Member, is having to get down to doing this sort of marketing; it would be much better done by someone who means to do it for a living.

The role of SEE3 in managing markets in Sydenham, whose web site still has the next market being 12th April, should be subject to some proper market testing. If SEE3 can't find the volunteers to help Chris out, that's not just their problem, as Sydenham's.

[Annie.]

It does sound sensible to have a purpose built company to enhance the viability of Sydenhams market, one that can bring traders in, and can make sure there is a variety of stalls to keep the interest going.
I absolutely loved Brixton Market when I was a child, I know the scale is vastly different, but We used to go every Saturday morning and really look forward to it.

[mosy]

Quoting my post is fine, but would have made more sense to readers if dated, i.e. the publicity posters were for expired events (that I was seeing at the time I posted).

It beats me why traders persevere when they're being charged a lot in profit recovery terms let alone clear profit for the privilege. The council plan seems to have been, or still is, limited to build it and they will come.

With the best will in the world, the markets need more ongoing pre or permanent advertising signage, then fanfare/music/barkers to ensure liveliness attendance. I don't know how people buy art and craft things - impulsive buys? Or a little sit down with a plate of food, then think "I could buy that for xyz person"? Does a one-minute look around half a dozen stalls encourage people to buy without something to keep them there longer?

I'm sure there is an art to selling things from a stall - i.e. patter, or auctioning "Not £20, not £10, who'll give me £7" etc. I guess that wouldn't suit some of our "how undignified" thinkers, but that's what markets are surely - places where you try actively not just display wares as that's what gathers crowds. Are the pocket squares big enough for that type of market? Now that's a different question.

[mosy]

Oops, meant to say that as the pocket squares earn no income most of the time, if it were organised, it could be antiques/collectables Monday, food Tues, clothes Wed, fruit/veg Fri and mixed Sat/Sun.

Running out time again though for fine weather as I watch the rain tumbling down.

[Pally]

Quoting my post is fine, but would have made more sense to readers if dated, i.e. the publicity posters were for expired events (that I was seeing at the time I posted).

It beats me why traders persevere when they're being charged a lot in profit recovery terms let alone clear profit for the privilege. The council plan seems to have been, or still is, limited to build it and they will come.

With the best will in the world, the markets need more ongoing pre or permanent advertising signage, then fanfare/music/barkers to ensure liveliness attendance. I don't know how people buy art and craft things - impulsive buys? Or a little sit down with a plate of food, then think "I could buy that for xyz person"? Does a one-minute look around half a dozen stalls encourage people to buy without something to keep them there longer?

I'm sure there is an art to selling things from a stall - i.e. patter, or auctioning "Not £20, not £10, who'll give me £7" etc. I guess that wouldn't suit some of our "how undignified" thinkers, but that's what markets are surely - places where you try actively not just display wares as that's what gathers crowds. Are the pocket squares big enough for that type of market? Now that's a different question.

Oops, meant to say that as the pocket squares earn no income most of the time, if it were organised, it could be antiques/collectables Monday, food Tues, clothes Wed, fruit/veg Fri and mixed Sat/Sun.

Running out time again though for fine weather as I watch the rain tumbling down.

What a lot of sensible ideas and suggestions ...as is the original suggestion of an employed management group. Just don't know how it all gets moved forward...?

[stone-penge]

The localism act 2011 allows a community right to challenge:

The Community Right to Challenge gives community groups, parish councils and local authority
employees the right to submit an “expression of interest” in taking over and running a local
authority service. The local authority must consider and respond to the challenge. If a local
authority accepts the challenge they must then run a procurement exercise in which organisations
– including those that challenged the delivery of the service but also private companies - can bid to
take over the running of the service.

I wonder if that would apply to Sydenham Markets?

[sydenhamboy]

They need to have more food being cooked/sold. Simple.

[broken_shaman]

It needs to be on more regularly (ie both days of a weekend or every weekend of the month).

Pitch prices need to be cut to attract more traders, until the market is established.

The community needs to show more support for what is there. This means attending, bringing a friend, spending some time there, buying something, responding to threads advertising the market on here, finding something positive to say about the market and its traders.

My fear, sadly, is that we end up with a banner in the square, to go with the posters in the shops, the promotion in local societies and forums, the promotion from traders and the very real promotion offered by the market actually being there, but people still leave it up to someone else to attend/ walk round for 5 minutes and then report that they went to do something more interesting instead/ say they'll definitely go to the next one/ complain about the lack of promotion.

The market would appear to be in a bit of a cycle, where people complain about what is on offer or how it is marketed, so don't support the market, which means traders are less likely to come and trade, which means there is less on offer the next time etc...

Look. Here's the last thread. No comments. That's the future I'm afraid. A distinct lack of interest.

http://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11714

[michael]

The localism act 2011 allows a community right to challenge:

The Community Right to Challenge gives community groups, parish councils and local authority
employees the right to submit an “expression of interest” in taking over and running a local
authority service. The local authority must consider and respond to the challenge. If a local
authority accepts the challenge they must then run a procurement exercise in which organisations
– including those that challenged the delivery of the service but also private companies - can bid to
take over the running of the service.

I wonder if that would apply to Sydenham Markets?

I am sure that if somebody wanted to take over the Sydenham Market, then they would be welcome to approach SEE3 or the council to discuss this. Because the current market is a monthly market there is nothing to stop them setting up a market this weekend (when there is no Sydenham Market planned) if that is what they wish to do.

The Forest Hill Society were very happy to stop running monthly food fairs when a successful weekly farmers' market took over. There is possibly no greater success for an Amenity Society (or a Portas Pilot group) than proving a gap exists and allowing private enterprises to fill that gap with an even better offering.

[alywin]

They need to have more food being cooked/sold. Simple.

Something like that, certainly. I mean, it's all very well having some good sources of nice presents etc. for those times when you have someone you're buying a present for, but if you have things that people are going to buy on a regular basis, month in, month out, then surely that is a better way of getting people to visit regularly?

On my first trip (well, barring the accidental one on a Sunday some considerable time ago when I just happened to be going to the station) to the market a few months ago, I clocked: nice gift and card stalls (it was just that time of year when nobody I know had an appropriate birthday), fresh juice/drinks (had had one at home just before I came out, but resolved, now I knew, to get some next time), a couple of nice food stalls, and so on. "Next time", the latter 2 weren't there at all

I do also wonder whether 11 am is a bit late to start? When do people tend to do their shopping? I don't spend a lot of time in the high street, so don't know Sydenham's situation in particular, but I know the much-lamented Penge market operated from something like 9 to 1, and was often packing up by the time I arrived at gone noon. Mind you, that one's closed, of course