Turning offices into flats

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Tim Lund
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Turning offices into flats

Post by Tim Lund »

Thnking about Rachel's recent advice,
Rachael wrote: perhaps it would be more productive to raise them in the original thread then carry on the conversation else[where].

...

Effective communication is all about the context...
I hope I can make this one interesting without being acrimonious, and that we can agree this is the right place for it. But I would still appreciate criticism of what I have to say here - that would seem to me the right context.

Anyway, it's about how another bit of planning conventional wisdom - and actual practice, is IMHO, misguided, and it forms a natural follow on of what I wrote in that same thread:
Tim Lund wrote:The area I was thinking of (no surprise) was Town Planning, having recently heard one say that in his world people tended to occupy silos - you were either a town planner as such, or a civil engineer, or an architect, and you tended to come up with solutions just using your own discipline. ... I'd say the problem is worse than that, with a fourth profession, economists, also thinking they basically have the answers.

...

In the case of SydSoc's Kirkdale Masterplan, it's me who's thinking more like an economist, while Mary and SydSoc are thinking more like architects

...

it would be good for experts from a range of disciplines, and local people, to come up with solutions, but I am not sure how it would best be done. Quite happy to exchange ideas, however :)
The news item triggering it is this from the BBC The rush to turn offices into flats, and the report starts off
It was billed as a clever wheeze to create new homes - but could scrapping planning rules turn out to be a major miscalculation?
The miscalculation, if there is one, is of the number of such conversions which are now happening:
Planning Minister Nick Boles claimed the move would create 130,000 badly-needed new homes, using up 5% of vacant office space.

Officials at the Department for Communities and Local Government were far more cautious, suggesting it might result in as few as five extra conversion projects a year across the whole of England.

The early signs are that they were both wrong ...

In one London borough, Richmond, 107 schemes which will create hundreds of new flats, have already been given "prior approval" since the new rules came into force in May.

DCLG officials estimated a maximum of 175 office-to-residential changes in the first year, but research by Planning magazine in the summer found 46 councils had already received more than 260 applications between them.

To me, the benefits of this seem so obvious - housing people, removing the blight of empty building, at no cost to the tax payer, and the lowest possible environmental cost for creating new homes - that I can't see why it is written up as if it's on balance a problem. If you look at the negatives given in the article, they come down to:
  • There will not be subject to proper planning control;
  • Not enough social housing will be provided;
  • Having designated office space is important for a local economy; and
  • Local control is lost
Here are some quotes to illustrate:
Archway Tower, a vacant 17 storey former social security office in North London, is to be turned into flats without planning permission
Like other developers they [Essential Living] say councils can no longer realistically demand the inclusion of "social housing" if they want the big increase in rented accommodation they say is needed
London Mayor Boris Johnson managed to gain exemptions for some areas including the City of London, seen as being of national economic importance, and the West End

...

"The danger is you end up with a dormitory situation, with more people forced to commute for work, which is environmentally unsound and changes the character of the area," says David Linnette, Conservative chairman of Richmond Borough Council's planning committee.
"Where is the spirit of localism in this?" says Mr Linnette.

"It is not as if we are dinosaurs, sticking our head in the sand, all we are asking is that we are able to make up our minds locally about this."
None of these arguments stack up for me.

On the first, all that's happening is a relaxation of one part of the planning system. There is no reason to think that other requirements - fire exits, adequate car parking, etc. are also going to go by the board. It really is panic mongering.

The second is one I do have some sympathy with, because what we need most of all in London is more affordable housing (and the lack of quote marks here is deliberate). In the long run, this will happen by increasing supply, and this is what this change is doing, so what's the problem? Well, maybe it's because this new accommodation will still not be affordable for many people who we need still living in London to maintain its rich social mix. Fine. So just stick to the normal guidelines on "affordable" housing percentages, but don't stop the conversion of redundant buildings.

The third is the big one - does conversion to residential adversely impact local economies? I can't imagine there are many actual economists now who would think it does, but because zoning for office use has for so many years been written into our planning system, and explained as being for economic reasons, many non economists assume that it must be right. There is some sense in it, in that buildings adapted for living in are not so good for working in, but this is far less true now than once; many people work from home, with perhaps a room or outbuilding converted into an office. An economist, looking at the problem, would ask what are the costs of switching use of space between residential and business, and as a matter of policy, try to help manage them down. It then becomes a challenge for planners to think out how planning rules should change so that this flexibility is maintained, and for architects to think how to make the changes, and make these sad abandoned buildings live again. There's also a role for civil engineers to calculate what the impact will be on building structures, and infrastructure required, but that's probably the least difficult. So not abandoning planning, but adapting it for the 21st century.

As to the last - loss of local control - this seems fairly bizarre. Local governments, like anyone part of civil society, including individuals and businesses, can stay in control of what they are responsible for as long as they behave sensibly. But if they act perversely, insisting that office buildings stay empty in the belief that businesses will one day return to them, they should be taken no more seriously than adherents of a cargo cult
Notable examples of cargo cult activity include the setting up of mock airstrips, airports, offices, and dining rooms, as well as the fetishization and attempted construction of Western goods, such as radios made of coconuts and straw
Last edited by Tim Lund on 20 Dec 2013 16:00, edited 2 times in total.
Rachael
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Re: Turning offices into flats

Post by Rachael »

Interesting edit of my comment - I meant what I wrote the first time - raise the issue first in the relevant thread THEN carry on elsewhere.
Tim Lund
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Re: Turning offices into flats

Post by Tim Lund »

Sorry - my mistake. I don't know why I didn't understand you properly the first time. I'll correct it. Can I also insert a comma?
Rachael
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Re: Turning offices into flats

Post by Rachael »

No you may not insert a comma. Cheeky.
Eagle
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Re: Turning offices into flats

Post by Eagle »

Tim
You were certainly correct your posts are , on average , much longer than mine.

However quality over quantity. Apologies of course yours are works of art which the Bard would have approved of.

I am not sure many offices in Sydenham that could be turned into flats. Hardly a vibrant commercial spot is it.

Possible The Cobb's complex , but we do not want to do anything to it that would make Old Walter turn in his grave.
Tim Lund
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Re: Turning offices into flats

Post by Tim Lund »

It's why in my first edit, I signalled the fact by putting the change in square brackets. If you look now, there's still another such edit, which Rachel seems happy to accept. It may have had something to do with why I thought 'then' might also have been a mistake - which I changed, but as said, signalled the change.

Any chance of a comment on the planning issues here? At the very least I'm expecting a condemnation of my crass lack of sensitivity to the culture of the Trobriand Islands. :D
Rachael
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Re: Turning offices into flats

Post by Rachael »

The other change wasn't a mistake as such, just autocorrect not recognising the term 'elsethread' and me not noticing it had inserted a space. I didn't bother correcting you on that because your change didn't alter the meaning of what I wrote.

Suggesting a comma when it's not appropriate, though, is crossing the line...
Tim Lund
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Re: Turning offices into flats

Post by Tim Lund »

OK - I'll uncross the line, but a comma there would have helped me. I know punctuation can be quite individual ...
Tim Lund
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Re: Turning offices into flats

Post by Tim Lund »

rod taylor wrote:
Tim Lund wrote: Any chance of a comment on the planning issues here? At the very least I'm expecting a condemnation of my crass lack of sensitivity to the culture of the Trobriand Islands.
I can't say it is a subject I've given much thought, and in principle it makes a certain amount of sense to turn empty offices into occupied housing. My only concern would be that communal spaces are maintained.
Which could of course be a requirement of any planning permission. In practice, empty office blocks are not communal space in the first place, so it should be all gain.
Robin Orton
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Re: Turning offices into flats

Post by Robin Orton »

The idea of an 'office zone' seems strange to me. I'd have thought that in terms of creating a good and vibrant human environment it would make sense to have offices and dwellings mixed together, so that you've got people around both during the working day and in the evenings and at weekends.

So I would see no problem in converting a substantial proportion of offices to residential use, given the current demand for new housing and the fact that the traditional 'clerical factory' office is presumably in terminal decline anyway.

On similar grounds I would not object to seeing a substantial proportion of retail premises, e.g. on Sydenham Road, converted to residential use. Obviously there will still be the need for some shops (and cafes, pubs, bars, restaurants, galleries, churches, betting shops, brothels etc.) to serve the needs of the residents, but those needs are changing rapidly and we are certainly over-provided with retail premises at the moment.
Nigel
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Re: Turning offices into flats

Post by Nigel »

Tim
I am personally so weary of your unremitting drive to increase the population of London . You dress your sole , single and zealous idea in all sorts of quasi intellectual clothes but it is the same tired idea .
If your ideas were ever put into practice only a fool would be surprised that in 10 years we would still be saying " we need to build x 000 homes per year " . It is the M25 syndrome all over again .
Eagle I think asked the question previously - who are we building for ? Declining indigenous population etc . That is a hugely valid question that people like you can only answer with your out of touch vagaries about the right to demand London expands and becomes denser , against the majority view .
You have the perfect right to pursue your dream but please don't dress it up in the tiresome philosophical terms you love to spout .
Basically ......you want to build homes that will attract thousands of people from other countries and towns . I don't .
You want to do this by making people live closer together and with less space including green space . I dont.
You want more of the housing to be social housing and therefore tending to increase the proportion of our town that needs support rather than bringing wealth . I don't .
You are a deeply thinking and moral person , I'm not .
You seem to have many friends who are by turns philosophers , academics and even farmers . I don't .
My views are ordinary , unremarkable and commonly held . Yours are not .
Good evening
Nigel
Tim Lund
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Re: Turning offices into flats

Post by Tim Lund »

Nigel - you've made the point about the M25 before, and I've not responded. The problem there was that users of the M25 were not charged - it was a free good, so, unsurprisingly, it quickly got overwhelmed with demand, leading for cries for yet more roads. It's not the same with housing, because no one is suggesting it should be free. But you are right, to the extent that if the price of housing in London comes down, especially relative to elsewhere, yet more people will chose to live here. And you are also right, as I think you have suggested elsewhere, that keeping property prices high would be a way of controling population growth.

But could you not think all that, but also agree that empty office blocks could be converted to residential use?

Just two corrections, for anyone who has not read the same points being made numerous times before:

First, I don't particularly want more social housing, but it's not an argument I am very interested in getting involved with. For choice, like you, I'd much have people living and working in London able to and actually paying for unsubsidised housing, bringing in wealth but of course, this could include social housing.

Second, I don't want to lose green space, which is why I would prefer higher rise residential accommodation.

But you are quite right that i enjoy sharing what I feel is my city - even though I was not born here - with peope from other countries and towns. The only restriction I would put on this is that they should share our traditional values of living together under the government of right reason and law.

Any chance of getting back to the question of offices and flats?
Nigel
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Re: Turning offices into flats

Post by Nigel »

Tim
It's just more of the same with you .
I never see you post about improving the lot of people in poor accommodation that are already here .
I'm glad you like sharing your town with people from other countries - I do too but I am not keen to compromise standards of living for people already here .
You have literally worn me down - not to the point of agreeing with of course but to the point where I think you are slightly dangerous unboundaried ball of processing power with no empathy for actual people - only idealised intellectuals ideally from exotic places .
With some regret, that's my last response to any further topic that you post or commandeer .
Good evening
Nigel
Tim Lund
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Re: Turning offices into flats

Post by Tim Lund »

The latest Private Eye has this curious piece on the policy to allow empty offices to be turned into flats:

Image

with almost the complete opposite spin to the BBC story. When you read into it, there seems to be litle dispute about the facts; the BBC story highlights a strong demand for conversions in London, while Private Eye stress the lack of demand outside London. According to the BBC, Nick Boles "claimed the move would create 130,000 badly-needed new homes" while the DCLG said there would only be a few, while Private Eye says he now only claims there would be 100,000 new homes, compared with an earlier estimate of 200,000 to 250,000, but is only seeing 2,719 outside London.

The source for the Private Eye story is given as Inside Housing, and can be found on their web site here, and contains more about the actual economics here:
Jon Stoddart, director of planning consultancy CBRE, said the timescales made the scheme unattractive - as did the high value of office space. ‘In many areas outside London a long-term office tenant is just more lucrative than a residential conversion,’ he said.

He also said that legal uncertainty around the scheme had put some developers off.

Take-up of the scheme was stronger in the capital. Croydon received 33 applications to deliver 1,182 homes and Wandsworth 45 to deliver 205 homes. Many of the 25 boroughs that responded did not provide figures, but are understood to have received hundreds of applications.

Ken Jones, director of housing and regeneration at Barking and Dagenham Council said low residential prices and a lack of suitable office space were responsible.

Elizabeth Boyd, associate director at Tetlow King, said: ‘It is different in London because the residential market is so overheated - housing is more lucrative.
But Private Eye adds that more than half of London Councils have opted out of this scheme anyway - which might also account for any disappointment Nick Boles is feeling. The reason given is that loss of office space adversely affects local employment, but this only makes sense if you think there is a problem with people crossing borough boundaries when they go to work. I can't imagine there is any serious economist who would think this is a sensible policy, and yet it is the sort of thing parroted as an economic justification for this particular part of local planning policies.
Tim Lund
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Re: Turning offices into flats

Post by Tim Lund »

I thought about this thread again today, having looked at the proposal to redesignate the Willow Way site, and the adjoining garage space - something I fully support.

In the preamble it says
Much of the purpose behind this report is directed toward identifying an argument for the re-designation of the Willow Way site from local employment to residential; the traditional light industrial activities are giving way to other potential uses and revenue generators including creative industries and the service sector and as such the need for goods vehicle access and factory style units is being replaced by more loose fit, flexible accommodation.
Later it says
The overarching intention is to propose a scheme which has a appropriate density which will be flexible in its use over a period of time, a loose fit approach will be adopted to allow the buildings to have a number of uses as the market demands; thus the larger public building at the south of the site whilst currently identified as being for either healthcare or educational use could in time be changed to office space or even additional residential usage.
where the stress on flexibility and responsiveness to market demands is very welcome.

But if here in Willow Way, why not elsewhere? Why have these planning designations if we know they don't make sense? My suspicion is that a generation of planners have bamboozled themselves about economics.
leenewham
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Re: Turning offices into flats

Post by leenewham »

It is happening a lot, especially informer industrial areas like hayes where all the factories have moved out.

These conversions make interesting spaces and therefore tend to demand a premium, simply because they are more desirable and developers can charge more.

They need to be carefully thought through though. Changes in workforce can have a knock on effect on the local economy, local businesses and shops etc. Developments should take tho into account. How people shop and spend locally changes depending on who works and lives nearby.
Tim Lund
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Re: Turning offices into flats

Post by Tim Lund »

More welcome acceptance of the workings of supply and demand.

Of course changes to planning need to be thought through, which is why I speak of recalibrating planning rather than attacking it per se.

But why does it have to take so long? No one benefits from the system as it is bar the planning consultants, the amateur mavins ... of yes, and all those voters who want to be sure the investment they have made in their houses won't go sour.
leenewham
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Re: Turning offices into flats

Post by leenewham »

Lol.

Planning takes so long as planning departments are understaffed and over worked and sometimes overly bureaucratic.
Eagle
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Re: Turning offices into flats

Post by Eagle »

Tim

Willow Way has been a designated commercial area for many many years. Surely we need areas for local commerce , otherwise the people you are driving out the commerce to house would have no where to work.
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