RebuildTheGreyhound - pub to be rebuilt by April 2015?

[gillyjp]

What Purelake has done, with assistance from well meaning but ill advised local community groups, is heart breaking really. After 7(?) years and counting we have a block of flats which had to be built around the Greyhound, which was then mullered to within an inch of its life on the pretext of saving a few old tiles that had been listed. Even the wall mosaic has had to be placed where no one can see it or appreciate it (apologies Lee).

What should now be a lovely community space with shops and cafes on the ground floor is just a dumping ground for rubbish, a building site and as it's Gateway, certainly does Sydenham no favours. A missed opportunity at best - a complete disaster at worst.

So sad.

[biscuitman1978]

What Purelake has done, with assistance from well meaning but ill advised local community groups, is heart breaking really. After 7(?) years and counting we have a block of flats which had to be built around the Greyhound, which was then mullered to within an inch of its life on the pretext of saving a few old tiles that had been listed. Even the wall mosaic has had to be placed where no one can see it or appreciate it (apologies Lee).

You misunderstand the position. First, the building as a whole is locally listed, not the tiles alone. Please visit http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/myservices/p ... st2014.pdf if you'd like to read the full listing.

Second, the 'mosaic' will be clearly visible once rebuilding of the pub is complete and the hoardings are removed, particularly as a greater number of pedestrians will use the footpath to the rear of the pub once the shop unit to the rear is open.

Third, and perhaps most importantly, the developer was not 'assisted' by local community groups in the illegal demolition of the pub and/or in failing to rebuild it. The fault lies very clearly at the door of the developer.

Very few, and probably none, of us are content with the current position. I understand your preference for a 'community space', but Lewisham Council concluded that some years ago that the Greyhound is an important building, for the reasons set out in the document to which I link above. Moreover, we must not allow developers to ride roughshod over the planning system by demolishing heritage assets without consent and then failing to rebuild them.

For those reasons I urge you to join with those who are working constructively to seek the rebuilding of the Greyhound - and are making progress in doing so, despite facing a developer which has shown complete disregard for our built heritage and the people of Sydenham.

[gillyjp]

With respect Biscuitman – it was not my intention to imply that some local community groups had been implicit in the illegal demolition of the Greyhound. What I meant was that their reticence in the beginning, to see the bigger picture as to what could have been, rather than their insistence that the pub had to be retained at all costs, held back the process somewhat.
The’ listed’ building we have now is just 4 rather perilous walls being held together with a mosaic at the back which sadly cannot be appreciated to its fullest extent. To do that one would have to stand way back – and the furthest away one could stand to view it now is a few metres only.

I have no burning desire for a community space per say, but having accepted that the pub be retained, there could still be a pleasant row of shops and cafes with, dare I say it, a Sainsbury’s local who at least would have kept the outside area clean and tidy. What we have now is a dumping ground for which I am repeatedly ringing Love Lewisham to clear of crap.

[biscuitman1978]

With respect Biscuitman – it was not my intention to imply that some local community groups had been implicit in the illegal demolition of the Greyhound. What I meant was that their reticence in the beginning, to see the bigger picture as to what could have been, rather than their insistence that the pub had to be retained at all costs, held back the process somewhat.

Thank you for clarifying your position. I understand that you may disagree with the position that local community groups took, but things have moved on somewhat. We cannot go back and make different decisions, however much you might like to. In any case, as I note below, you now appear to share the same aims as the community groups of which you are so critical, so may I respectfully suggest that you work constructively alongside them rather than criticising them.

The’ listed’ building we have now is just 4 rather perilous walls being held together with a mosaic at the back which sadly cannot be appreciated to its fullest extent. To do that one would have to stand way back – and the furthest away one could stand to view it now is a few metres only.

You're right about the condition of the building, except to say that it's not 'held together with a mosaic'. You're also right that the mosaic cannot be appreciated from distance. That's not ideal, but in my view not a reason to have not included it. Are you suggesting that the mosaic should not have been included?

I have no burning desire for a community space per say, but having accepted that the pub be retained, there could still be a pleasant row of shops and cafes with, dare I say it, a Sainsbury’s local who at least would have kept the outside area clean and tidy. What we have now is a dumping ground for which I am repeatedly ringing Love Lewisham to clear of crap.

I'm pleased you have accepted that the pub will be retained. As for delivering 'a pleasant row of shops and cafes', the position is simple: the legal agreement attached to the planning permission says that once the pub has been rebuilt, the shop units can be let (including to Sainsbury's, who as far as I know remain keen to take one of the units). They will, I am sure, be as keen as you (and me and many others) to see the area kept tidy.

It appears, therefore, that your aims are now largely the same as the community groups of which you have been critical: to secure the rebuilding of the pub, thereby allowing the vacant units behind and to the side to be let.

Once again, therefore, I urge you to join with those who are working constructively to seek the rebuilding of the Greyhound.

[Sydenham]

I think the Greyhound is being discussed tomorrow (Wednesday) at the Mayor's Cabinet Meeting. It's on the agenda. I'm planning to go along to listen and be involved. Starts at 18:00, Catford Town Hall. Not sure when they'll get around to our part of the agenda though.

Let's try and keep the pressure on the Council planning department by being seen to be bothered and irritated by their inaction and general passivity.

[mosy]

Thank you for the heads up. Is it worth it though attending the meeting if the only mention might be a one-liner that progress reports have been received and it looks like everyone is keeping his/her foot on the pedal? From the ones I've attended, it's not like what the Mayor instructs anything to happen (above and beyond what already is) but merely acknowledges what's put before him. Considering Catford traffic, it's a long round trip since questions from observers aren't allowed. Anything to persuade me and others to go?

[admin]

I plan to go. Sydenham has two members in cabinet (Rachel & Chris) so they should not let this item pass without comment. I will try and record it. Nice to have company.

Just a reminder to complete your homework before attending http://councilmeetings.lewisham.gov.uk/ ... Update.pdf
It is item 10 on this agenda: http://councilmeetings.lewisham.gov.uk/ ... 9&MId=3499

Admin

[Nigel]

Admin
it's all small steps but I am sure it will end well . Thanks in advance for the update, however small it might be .
The post from Parker has to be a good omen - we might have to revise the date in the thread title a bit but it will be rebuilt .
To quote Kevin Costner , if you build it , they will drink.......

A very good evening
Nigel

[biscuitman1978]

PROMISED UPDATE FROM THE SYDENHAM SOCIETY

Things are moving forward but more slowly than forecast. Completion may slip to summer. This information comes from the report published today to the Mayor and Cabinet for next week's meeting on Wednesday 11 February: http://councilmeetings.lewisham.gov.uk/ ... Update.pdf

- Officers requested a structural condition survey and construction method statement to satisfy the legal obligation placed on the applicant by the 2010 planning permission (Schedule 10 of the Section 106 agreement) to restore and refurbish the Greyhound

- The applicant disputed the need for the structural condition survey and construction method statement

- Meetings were held on site with the applicant in both December 2014 and January 2015 to discuss the need for the survey and statement

- The applicant subsequently provided a drawing (on 23 January 2015), but officers advised that it was inadequate

- The applicant has now instructed its architects and engineers to prepare detailed plans for submission by the end of February

In addition:

- A 'Section 96a application', which is designed to vary the 2010 permission (to allow, for example, the larger basement to remain) was submitted in October 2014

- Officers requested additional information which was received on 22 January 2015

- Officers expect to make a decision on the application this week

I'm pleased to say that the 'Section 96a application' was approved yesterday.

The next step is for Purelake to submit the information required to satisfy the legal obligation placed on them by the 2010 planning permission. That information, as admin notes above, is due to be submitted by the end of February.

[Nigel]

Thanks for the update Biscuitman , good news but still evident that PureFlake are dragging their feet .
It looks like a case of serif it through but I wonder if some renewed publicity for PureFlake might be useful if they don't meet the next deadline ?
A very good evening
Nigel

[admin]

This is a video of this item being discussed at Cabinet last night. Its nearly 10 minutes long and came at the back end of a four hour session where everybody is very tired hence its not riveting viewing. Nevertheless it is a detailed look at progress to date and keeping the council officers focussed on getting Purelake to deliver: https://sydenham.org.uk/rebuildthegreyh ... rt-update/

Admin

[Sydenham Syd]

This is a video of this item being discussed at Cabinet last night. Its nearly 10 minutes long and came at the back end of a four hour session where everybody is very tired hence its not riveting viewing. Nevertheless it is a detailed look at progress to date and keeping the council officers focussed on getting Purelake to deliver: https://sydenham.org.uk/rebuildthegreyh ... rt-update/

Admin

Just a total fiasco and that video shows how totally entwined in bureaucracy local govt/councils are and how little power they have over the private sector. PureFlake (great name btw) just walk all over the process as they realise the people they are dealing with have no spine.

The last point about is just totally absurd and speaks volumes - underlining my previous sentence. This is a legal matter and has or shouldn't have, anything to do with what goes on in Westminster.

Ghastly scenes and quite frankly totally depressing. I am not reassured of any progress whatsoever having watched that video, although thanks for sharing.

[Eagle]

I cannot understand why some are happy to let the deadline of April be ignored.

When the promise was made re April finish , so , I would imagine , all the facts were known.

How can they then come back with new obstacles.

Either should be completed immediately , or should be pulled down immediately.

Simples

No more delays.

[Gaddison]

Thank you Eagle

Yes please council.......

What is going on now!?

April is approaching.....so what I
Is happening....

[MCD]

As a newcomer to Sydenham I cannot understand why anybody would want yet another pub/eating place in the High Street. Surely this little area would look so much better if the ruins were knocked down and a patio constructed with seating and some trees. Now that really would enhance and make a feature of the roundabout area!
It could also be a much needed public space for the kind of community/artistic events that are being fostered in the neighbourhood.

[mosy]

Hi MCD and welcome

A similar question has been asked before (i.e. why not a plaza instead) and the answer seems to be that the land/building owner could not expect to receive any income from an open paved area whereas they can from a building leased to a going concern. That seems perfectly reasonable to me as who would want to give land away for no return?

As to whether it should be a pub, it's already been agreed that it will be rebuilt as a pub and has been since 2010 IIRC. I don't think any of us in our wildest dreams ever thought it possible to come up with quite so many stumbling blocks to confound agreement among the various parties involved.

[admin]

Yes could I back up Mosy's words. Personally I agree with MCD an open plaza would be best but others here disagree. They want their Greyhound back. What we all don't want is the wreck that is wrecking Sydenham. We can argue for third and fourth options but they would cause further delay and probably not succeed.

So we have two realistic options on the table. Leave the wreck as it is or enforce the original planning application and get it rebuilt and trading again as soon as possible. I'm awaiting news daily on that.

Admin

[G-Man]

Hi MCD and welcome to the area.

We need new pubs because new pubs and decent places to eat help lift an area. At the moment the only really decent place to go for a drink if you are someone like myself - Late 30s early 40s, professional, into music, ale art and such - is the Dolphin. No other pub works for me. And there is hardly anywhere to have a decent meal on the high street. We need more variety, more choice and another decent boozer. It's what starts things and with our English weather a pub is a lot better than an open space for holding community events. They are dry and warm and what's better is they serve beer!*

*They will probably do coffee, and soft drinks so before you start saying what if you don't drink, you don't have to.

G-Man

[Robin Orton]

A 'plaza'? We're not in bleeding Spain! We're in cold, wet Sydenham, full of street drinkers and street evangelists and litter blowing around in the wind. Give me a nice, cosy, quiet pub any day. I'm fed up with 'upscale' trattorias and bistros and tapas bars and vegan cafes, with rock and roll played full blast on their 'hi-fi' equipment. It's about time there was something homely and comfortable and cheap for us hard-pressed pensioners. Draught bitter and cheese and onion crisps, please - and no juke box. Somewhere where we can sit and reminisce about ITMA and rationing.

[Tim Lund]

Just for Robin