Middle Class Pubs

Footloose · Post by **Footloose** » 23 Aug 2006 13:14

Well there are plenty of pubs playing "music" I would not wish to listen to and at a volume I would not subject myself to.

How about an alternative?

I never mentioned class. However clean is most definitely a requirement of customers if the establishment is going to be held to a similar one.

still_robbo · Post by **still_robbo** » 23 Aug 2006 16:45

The thread is entitled Middle Class Pubs.

I suppose the point I'm making is that the current bunch of pubs in Sydenham cater for the crowd that they attract and seem to do quite well out of it.

Gentrification won't work just because some people wish for it - market forces will decide ultimately.

I also think that those scruffy working classes, with their poor taste in music should be allowed to drink somewhere!

Footloose · Post by **Footloose** » 24 Aug 2006 09:27

Like I tried to say. It is not an issue of class. It is a matter of a gap in the market which the "market" has not identified or attempted to fill.

Let those who prefer scruffy down at heel places have them. Let's see something else to cater for people who simply do not like such environments.

leaf · Post by **leaf** » 24 Aug 2006 22:49

if anyone is up for running a pub which will cater for the once a week drinkers,i suggest you see a business advisor!

Greg Whitehead · Post by **Greg Whitehead** » 30 Aug 2006 12:00

Good point Leaf. It does beg the question though how the Dartmouth Arms keeps going, given that if I jump of the train early (for the walk) at Forest Hill I'll pop my head round and it seems a little quiet. I firmly believe (and perhaps we'll yes agree to disagree) that there are enough of 'my' type of people to keep a little deli and a decent pub afloat. I may only go out now and then but feel there are enough of us to keep a good churn.

Agree with The Eagle also that Middle Class is hard to define but most certainly wouldn't include a Mail reader as middle class. Generally The Mail is read by C2DE xenophobic housewifes and tradesmen...it's The Sun with more words and less graphics. I'd term middle class as ~100K income, public school educated - there are a fair few of us in Sydenham.

I do like drinking in the Dulwich Wood House - that gets my reasonably regular trade. I even had a friend from Wandsworth Common visit with me and he was bowled over by the area.

In short, I have no problem with places like X and will drink in the these pubs but I'm a media ponce and occasionally like to get my kicks in very shallow and very petty games of one upmanship with people of similar backgrounds (I'll be careful here) and there just isn't anywhere close to hand

leaf · Post by **leaf** » 31 Aug 2006 13:44

hello greg
glad were agreed on something....even if its only to disagree!

im afraid im about to disagree with something else you have said!
i think there is a real problem with the way class is defined,both of the things you use to gage a persons 'middleclassness' are certainly things that could apply to the working classes too,i'll give you an example;

my mother grew up in bethnal green[very working class area]her parents didnt have alot of money,mother was a civil servant,father a circuit installer for london underground,MY MOTHER WENT TO PUBLIC SCHOOL!

i have several family members who have businesses of their own that have a much higher yearly turnover than 100k.

this is i believe half the problem,working class people now are capable of earning the sorts of wages that once were reserved for the middleclasses,owning your own house was once an indicator of being middle class not anymore,there is now a lack of distinction between the working and middle classes through financial definitions.

the new term of chav is something made up by media types[sorry!]to distinguish between the classes lots of people now seem to use this word to define working class people of ALL types,i hate the use of this word in this context it is actually a romany word for child!

anyway,all you want is a nice pub to drink in,im with you on that one and im working class!

as for the oneupmanship i'll leave that to you middle class lot!

leaf

stringfellow · Post by **stringfellow** » 31 Aug 2006 20:05

Wanting somewhere to drink is not a great indicator of class. The old class system is dead, there are only people who don't need to work, people who have to work, people who can't work and people who will do everything within their power to avoid work. I'm in the 'have to work' camp but I still want somewhere nice to drink that doesn't involve sitting with tracksuited teenagers arguing over who is going to buy the next round of vodka red bulls and smoking Lambert & Butler's.

I like the Dartmouth Arms and it seems to have enough trade to keep it going and I'm sure Sydenham could also manage to drum up enough trade should someone decide to open something along the same lines.

That said, the Golden Lion is nice enough if you are not looking to entertain your media buddies. You should give it a try you might even enjoy yourself...

Footloose · Post by **Footloose** » 31 Aug 2006 21:06

walking past the Golden Lion is enough. The smell of the place would put off anyone looking for a pleasant, clean environment.

nork1 · Post by **nork1** » 31 Aug 2006 22:10

Because it smells like a pub and doesn't have the waft of chardonnay and overpriced gastro food? This is South London, it's a pub - it smells like a South London pub.

annabel mclaren · Post by **annabel mclaren** » 1 Sep 2006 10:14

The Golden Lion is a great traditional pub. And they really look after their forecourt - they put on a great show with their flowers and shrubs and really cheer up Sydenham. They should be congratulated!

Greg Whitehead · Post by **Greg Whitehead** » 1 Sep 2006 12:55

Hi Leaf,

Here's maybe one thing we can agree on? I think the points been laboured enough.

I agree with you that the dividing lines between the classes are mixed more than ever. In point of fact, unless 'one' is descended from a royal blood line we're all commoners - aren't we? I just get so frustrated that there is clear demand yet not supply. I've visited this rocky ground before and have been shot down so I'll be careful BUT some of my old Uni friends who earn sub 50K have had to buy/rent in Honor Oak and Brockley - they have a huge amount of choice. I and many others like me earn six figures, live on the beautiful streets in Lower/Upper/Syd Hill (and there are many all over Sydenham - we know which ones they are) yet have no choice.

I guess because the friends over the way aren't professional and go out alot probably helps - that's what comes of working in TV and not having to wear a suit - they may earn a pittance but spend most of that on going out and rent. Ergo they get the bars.

That's enough - I'm as bored as I can be regarding this point. I'll continue spending my ££ elsewhere. Voting with my feet I believe it's called.

pippa · Post by **pippa** » 1 Sep 2006 13:50

Greg, I really don't know why you waste your money on living in Sydenham - you live up your own @rse so theoretically you could live anywhere!!!

Greg Whitehead · Post by **Greg Whitehead** » 1 Sep 2006 14:52

pippa wrote:Greg, I really don't know why you waste your money on living in Sydenham - you live up your own @rse so theoretically you could live anywhere!!!

I live where I live in Sydenham Pippa so I can delight in looking down my nose at oiks such as yourself both physically (in terms of geography) and metaphorically (in terms of standing).

Thank you for your kind words Pippa - I really derserved the character assisination. You really ought to meet me - you really would like me and I can guarantee that.

Prole. Been out for a few Diamond White's at lunch and feeling a bit "mouthy innit?" - come on girl, those 'phones on reception won't answer themselves...

leaf · Post by **leaf** » 1 Sep 2006 15:01

to be fair greg,you have been as equally insulting in previous posts in this thread,you certainly make no apologies for your snobbery which despite not agreeing with your views,i admire.

you must have known that someone would give back what you dished out?

raymondus · Post by **raymondus** » 1 Sep 2006 15:41

Are you saying that receptionists have failed in life?

Footloose · Post by **Footloose** » 1 Sep 2006 19:46

Surely, if we are to accept the economists' version of class then middle class should be middle income earners. i.e. (say) average earnings +/- 15% or thereabouts.

Class has nothing to do with income. It is about taste and style. It is not about education (private or state) but a good education helps. It helps because a good education provides access to choice.

The Americans, with their "classless" society are obsessed by class. They simply have no conception what it is and so they have adopted the economists' model that money can buy anything. It cannot.

If income is to be treated as relevant then surely disposable income is the real test and the council house owner then comes out top. Few, in London would qualify.

Money has nothing to do with it.

GLOBAL THINKER · Post by **GLOBAL THINKER** » 1 Sep 2006 19:46

I think we can agree that Sydenham needs more up to date drinking and eating establishments. Descending into abuse isn't going to make that happen.

Some of these posts are getting ridiculous.

This website/forum which could be used to inform and promote has become a battle ground full of personal insults and negativity. It's become banal, every time I log on hoping to see some good news and I keep reading the same rubbish.

Keep it up people and we may have wasted opportunity on our hands.

Disappointed of Sydenham

Footloose · Post by **Footloose** » 1 Sep 2006 19:48

SNAP!!!

leaf · Post by **leaf** » 1 Sep 2006 20:00

greg did start a negative topic though,so dont be surprised if some people respond negatively.

nork1 · Post by **nork1** » 1 Sep 2006 21:18

Greg, you have enough money to live in more upmarket surroundings, you obviously don't like associating with the likes of us, why do you actually live here? You'll be complaining that the ciabatta in the Adelaide in Penge is a bit stale for your liking next.

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Middle Class Pubs