Windmill pub becoming a sainsburys?

[Eagle]

mary
you may be correct in stating it is a community asset. However surely it is too late if others are to be believed.

Where I 100% agree is allowing all and sundry to sell alcohol at all hours.

We should go back to only off licences with strict opening hours and pubs being the only places one can buy alcohol.
Not sure drinking at home is a positive thing and certainly drinking in the street is not.

Alcohol far too accessable in these days.

[Tim Lund]

Mary - why do you think the Windmill is a community asset?

hi I an a user of this pub and am disabled I am a user of a wheelchair one of the main reasons I use this pub is that it is the only pub I can get into in the area that has a disabled toilet so I say save this pub for that reason alone there is many more people in my position that use this pub for the same reason and have access to the outside garden area and always find the staff most helpful please please stop the pub turning into a sainsburys we just had a tescos express put on this street the pub is part of our community and should remain a pub

As a space the Windmill could be an amazing pub too.

Agree with G-Man that is could be a really good pub and hope it doesn’t end up as another Sainsbury’s

...

I believe The Windmill is an important community asset and should be saved.

Reasonable points Mary, but we also need to consider:

1. Why with pubs under threat, it is generally more "could be" than "are" community assets?
2. How much is fair to ask landlords to accept in reduced rent for the sake of providing community rather than commercial facilities?
3. How is it decided which landlords should accept such rent reductions? and
4. Are there better value community assets than pubs, taking into consideration the community liability of excessive alcohol consumption?

These are more general points, which don't just apply to The Windmill, but they are the ones that matter for policy purposes.

[marymck]

Reasonable points Mary, but we also need to consider:

1. Why with pubs under threat, it is generally more "could be" than "are" community assets?
2. How much is fair to ask landlords to accept in reduced rent for the sake of providing community rather than commercial facilities?
3. How is it decided which landlords should accept such rent reductions? and
4. Are there better value community assets than pubs, taking into consideration the community liability of excessive alcohol consumption?

These are more general points, which don't just apply to The Windmill, but they are the ones that matter for policy purposes.

Firstly, of course I believe that The Windmill is an important community asset. Not could be, not may be - but is.

Secondly, we're not talking about rent reductions for pubs - often we're talking about landlords hiking the existing rent unreasonably. Often landlords are given sort term leases. If they make a go of it, the rent goes up. They should be given longer and less restrictive leases. I'm not an expert on pub leases. But CAMRA is. They could give you more information on the detail of restrictions, but I know these often include restrictions on where landlords can buy their supplies - and how much they can pay.

Are there better community assets than pubs? Pubs are one of many community assets. But for many, particularly the older generation or for poorer people, pubs are their only social outlet. They can be a place to read a newspaper and take as long as you like over half a pint. The Windmill is big enough not to need to discourage people from going there just for the craic. Indeed it doesn't. I don't see many cafes letting one sit over a designer cup of coffee for half a day. Pubs are part of our social infrastructure and they fill a need.

The Windmill of course is somewhere where one can get more than a chat over a drink. They have entertainment too. The acts they have there may not be to everyone's taste. But classical music isn't to everyone's taste either. Variety is the spice of life and the life of our communities and Sydenham should be big hearted enough to cater for all tastes.

But the granting of an alcohol off sales licence for Sainsbury's won't create a social gathering space ... except maybe in the gutters. Upper Kirkdale is already well served for supermarkets (Costcutters and Tesco) and several convenience stores. Additionally, there is a large empty store next door to The Windmill (113-117 Kirkdale). The owner of that empty store has just been granted planning permission to divide it into three shops, because he believes the store is too big. It appears to be about the same size as The Windmill. One wonders why Sainsbury's don't buy that empty store if they feel they need a presence in Upper Kirkdale.

[Tim Lund]

Firstly, of course I believe that The Windmill is an important community asset. Not could be, not may be - but is.

You say is, but more of those you quote say could be.

Secondly, we're not talking about rent reductions for pubs - often we're talking about landlords hiking the existing rent unreasonably. Often landlords are given sort term leases. If they make a go of it, the rent goes up. They should be given longer and less restrictive leases. I'm not an expert on pub leases.

I don't think we need to be experts on pub leases as such - we can reason from the admitted simplification that landlords want to get the highest rent they can. In this case they clearly think they can get a higher rent from Sainsbury's, so obliging them to take the lower rent they can get from the Windmill is equivalent to imposing a 'community tax' on them of however much less they get.

But CAMRA is. They could give you more information on the detail of restrictions, but I know these often include restrictions on where landlords can buy their supplies - and how much they can pay.

CAMRA are hardly objective experts in this matter.

Are there better community assets than pubs? Pubs are one of many community assets. But for many, particularly the older generation or for poorer people, pubs are their only social outlet. They can be a place to read a newspaper and take as long as you like over half a pint. The Windmill is big enough not to need to discourage people from going there just for the craic. Indeed it doesn't. I don't see many cafes letting one sit over a designer cup of coffee for half a day. Pubs are part of our social infrastructure and they fill a need.

There's sense in this, although I have to say I've never felt pressurised to leave Kenté or other local cafés, however long I spend over a coffee, whose price is comparable to the half I'd normally buy in a pub. I do think there is a case of some kind of public money going to support the sort of facilities we'd both like to see. It's the point I made on the Catford Stadium thread

To put the stress on pubs in perspective, I was recently in a purpose build modern community [centre] in Oxford. I suppose it might have been thought a problem that at 12.00 the conversation had to stop as a horde of parents with toddlers invaded to café where we were - previously there was just the happy background sound of singing about winding the bobbin up.

OK - you have to manage who uses community facilities and when, and a good pub manager will in practice often make a good job of this - but someone with the same abilities may do even better running a commercial café or community centre, and pubs do, in effect, exclude those people who don't like going to pubs, or know that it's better for them to avoid them.

There is still the question of why commercial landlords with pubs in their portfolio should be the ones to pay for the non-commercial element of community benefit here. We don't need to weep for them, but we should recognise that Lewisham's blanket policy of opposing loss of pubs will have cost their owners, and provided yet more evidence to scare off investors, especially in pubs.

The Windmill of course is somewhere where one can get more than a chat over a drink. They have entertainment too. The acts they have there may not be to everyone's taste. But classical music isn't to everyone's taste either. Variety is the spice of life and the life of our communities and Sydenham should be big hearted enough to cater for all tastes.

No problem with this ...

But the granting of an alcohol off sales licence for Sainsbury's won't create a social gathering space ... except maybe in the gutters. Upper Kirkdale is already well served for supermarkets (Costcutters and Tesco) and several convenience stores. Additionally, there is a large empty store next door to The Windmill (113-117 Kirkdale). The owner of that empty store has just been granted planning permission to divide it into three shops, because he believes the store is too big. It appears to be about the same size as The Windmill. One wonders why Sainsbury's don't buy that empty store if they feel they need a presence in Upper Kirkdale.

Good question. Anyone any ideas?

[G-Man]

Tim - CAMRA would still be able to help with the information. They may not be objective as they work in the interest of pubs and landlords, but this is essentially what Marymck is talking about here, so they would be a great starting point.

I have tweeted them a link to this thread.

G-Man

[dantheman]

marymck, the windmill is not a TIED pub as i believe your refering to, maybe it would have half a chance of being viable. unfortunately the owner of the pub just sees it as an investment, no real interest in pubs in particular and probably wished he never bought it , although not sure what he paid. i can tell you it was on the market in 2011 for £900k , marketed by daltons business, and more recently, 2012, by davis coffer lyons who are leisure industry agents for £650k freehold. dont believe there are any links available anymore.i last spoke to davis coffer lyons towards the end of last year when they confirmed it was under offer, and subsequently removed from their website. i still have print outs in my office from daltons and dcl. rumours, from reliable sources, at the time of being under offer where that sainsburys where in the frame but i cant tell you when completion was or if it was stpp, not privy to that info.

[G-Man]

SE London CAMRA tweeted me back to say they are onto it. Be interested to see how it develops.

In my opinion the Windmill is very tired but as a space could be an amazing pub.

G-Man

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[dantheman]

lets not kid ourselves, no ones going to invest in it to keep it as a pub, besides there are many more pubs, and better pubs for the sort of asking price the windmill was looking for that are up for sale.

[JulietP]

I'm also with Dan and Tim. It is a building of no historical relevance or aesthetic value; together with the fried chicken shop and the betting shop opposite it creates an area where people hang around outside at night - which makes me feel a little threatened tbh. It looks dreadful from outside; I've never used it and don't want to. I would rather have a sainsburys.

I sympathise with the gentleman who needs disabled access to the pub; but surely all pubs need to offer disabled access?

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[marymck]

marymck, the windmill is not a TIED pub as i believe your refering to, maybe it would have half a chance of being viable. unfortunately the owner of the pub just sees it as an investment, no real interest in pubs in particular and probably wished he never bought it , although not sure what he paid. i can tell you it was on the market in 2011 for £900k , marketed by daltons business, and more recently, 2012, by davis coffer lyons who are leisure industry agents for £650k freehold. dont believe there are any links available anymore.i last spoke to davis coffer lyons towards the end of last year when they confirmed it was under offer, and subsequently removed from their website. i still have print outs in my office from daltons and dcl. rumours, from reliable sources, at the time of being under offer where that sainsburys where in the frame but i cant tell you when completion was or if it was stpp, not privy to that info.

Thanks very much for this useful information, Dan.

It's pretty shocking that all this has been going on so quietly, and certainly doesn't reflect what the staff have been told. I spoke with the manager again yesterday. She did know the pub was on the market, but has consistently been told no sale had happened.

Apart from anything else, this is an underhand way to treat employees, who are left in limbo.

I can't understand how a licensee can be kept in the dark as to who her employers are. I think that's outrageous. Surely the insurance etc would have to have been taken over by sainsbury's?

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[marymck]

Firstly, of course I believe that The Windmill is an important community asset. Not could be, not may be - but is.

You say is, but more of those you quote say could be.

I apologise if those I quoted don't agree that The Windmill is a community asset. Perhaps it was my misunderstanding. These are the quotes I used ...

hi I an a user of this pub and am disabled I am a user of a wheelchair one of the main reasons I use this pub is that it is the only pub I can get into in the area that has a disabled toilet so I say save this pub for that reason alone there is many more people in my position that use this pub for the same reason and have access to the outside garden area and always find the staff most helpful please please stop the pub turning into a sainsburys we just had a tescos express put on this street the pub is part of our community and should remain a pub

As a space the Windmill could be an amazing pub too.

Agree with G-Man that is could be a really good pub and hope it doesn’t end up as another Sainsbury’s

G-Man and Whitoff seemed to me to be saying the space could be a good pub. It's already - in my opinion - a community asset. Apologies to Tim for any offence my misuse of the quotes caused ... and of course to the original posters if I misunderstood their comments.

Tim had originally asked me why I thought The Windmill was a community asset. I believed that those quotes backed my opinion, which is why I used them. At the risk of getting my quotes in an even bigger twist The Windmill could be "an amazing pub"/"a really good pub" - which of course, it couldn't ever be if it were a supermarket.

Please don't forget, whatever some of you may think of The Windmill at the moment, it has been starved of investment but remains a valuable social resource for many who live in the neighbourhood. Once it is lost as a social gathering place - and my personal preference would be for it to remain a pub - it is lost forever. Witness The Woodman.

[Eagle]

Perhaps Tim Martin could be persuaded to buy it back???

[Tim Lund]

Tim had originally asked me why I thought The Windmill was a community asset. I believed that those quotes backed my opinion, which is why I used them. At the risk of getting my quotes in an even bigger twist The Windmill could be "an amazing pub"/"a really good pub" - which of course, it couldn't ever be if it were a supermarket.

Mary - for the record, I don't think anyone has anything to complain about how you have put your arguments on this thread, and I appreciate them while not agreeing with them.

[Tim Lund]

Perhaps Tim Martin could be persuaded to buy it back???

Who's Martin? What have I missed?

[marymck]

Thanks Tim.

[marymck]

Perhaps Tim Martin could be persuaded to buy it back???

Who's Martin? What have I missed?

My question exactly. Is he a previous owner, Eagle?

[Eagle]

Sorry thought he was well known.

Founder and Owner of Wetherspoon's. they were the first owner of The Windmill Pub.

[Tim Lund]

Sometimes it's hard to keep up with you, Eagle

[Eagle]

Sorry I made the assumption he is well known , like Richard Branson, but maybe I got it wrong. Hi is a very political figure strongly attacking The Euro and duty on beers in pubs among other matters.

They are the reason a pub is there but after The Capitol got going both Bird in Hand and Windmill were sold of.