Some random points:
I don't think existing local residents will be affected detrimentally by a Tesco's opening there. The only residental units are those above the shop and so anyone buying a flat there will know what they are getting.
Others living further up/down Kirkdale already see lots of cars and busses zipping past.
Those residents that own cars will still mainly head to either of the Sainsburys (or perhaps the Morrisons) and so the shop will be mainly used by those on foot in the immediate area.
As I said above, I welcome this as currently the only choice I have most evenings is to go to Costcutter (due to this being the only place still open late in the evening!). As I don't own a car, doing a big shop and then using the buses whilst loaded up can be quite a hassle.
Those that want to continue to shop in Rams and Costcutter can do so - if enough people feel strongly enough about them to not shop at a Tesco then they won't have any trouble with the competition.
I really don't see why local residents of Kirkdale area should have to make do and have to wait until small, independent shops come to the area and I don't see Tesco as being the big evil corporation a lot of posters seem to believe! Would people feel different if this was to be a Marks & Spencer 'Simply Food' or Waitrose opening there? IMO, these would be a greater threat to independent (quality) stores than the perceived lower-end approach of Tesco's.
What if a Tesco Express were to open along the High St instead of yet another fast-food joint - would this still be condemned as affecting the newsagent/grocers etc along there?
(Told you they were rambling, random thoughts!)
New Tesco in Kirkdale?
It all makes sense Gaz 
Just one thing I wanted to respond to is about anyone buying a flat knowing what they are getting - very true, but this doesn't help anyone who's already bought a flat in the new block, or in the adjacent block above Cafe Jasmine, and these are the two blocks most likely to be impacted by noise, re-sale/letting value, etc.
Personally I think I really need to take some time to digest this properly and consider my position. Seeing as I've already changed my mind once in 24 hours, anything's possible over the coming weeks!!
Just one thing I wanted to respond to is about anyone buying a flat knowing what they are getting - very true, but this doesn't help anyone who's already bought a flat in the new block, or in the adjacent block above Cafe Jasmine, and these are the two blocks most likely to be impacted by noise, re-sale/letting value, etc.
Personally I think I really need to take some time to digest this properly and consider my position. Seeing as I've already changed my mind once in 24 hours, anything's possible over the coming weeks!!
Thanks Nat - you and other posters have clearly demonstrated it certainly isn't quite the nice easy, decision I originally thought!
I know that I'm not wholly representative of those in the Kirkdale area, but for me personally, by having a Tesco Express there would mean I merely take my trade away from the Tesco Express nearby where I work and transfer it closer to home (thus supporting the local jobs created - some 20+ full-time positions I think the application docs said).
Also, I think a lot has to be said for the draw of the personal touch (as offered by Ram's). If I have the choice of going into a perhaps busy (and impersonal) Tesco or nipping into the friendly, local shop to get my milk/bread/newspaper then I'd usually choose the local option - as long as the price is not massively higher!
I know that I'm not wholly representative of those in the Kirkdale area, but for me personally, by having a Tesco Express there would mean I merely take my trade away from the Tesco Express nearby where I work and transfer it closer to home (thus supporting the local jobs created - some 20+ full-time positions I think the application docs said).
Also, I think a lot has to be said for the draw of the personal touch (as offered by Ram's). If I have the choice of going into a perhaps busy (and impersonal) Tesco or nipping into the friendly, local shop to get my milk/bread/newspaper then I'd usually choose the local option - as long as the price is not massively higher!
The proposal Tesco have submitted is:fat_mike wrote:correct me if I'm wrong but when you're buying a new build off plan or in the process of being built, the plans should really state that the ground level are retail outlets.
The change of use of the ground floor business unit (Use Class B1) at 139-147, Kirkdale, SE26 into a retail unit (Use Class A1).
So this is quite a change from a business generating very little traffic(pedestrian or otherwise), eg travel agent, solicitor, etc, open during normal working hours to a Tesco open 7am-11pm 7 days a week.
Actually, the biggest issue that local residents will have to look out for is Tesco's delivery van.
When the new shop opening up at Crystal Palace, the huge articulated truck turned up early in the morning, made loads of noise when it unloaded, and occupied the space outside the shop for a fairly long time during the start of rush hour. It didn't actually block the road, but it was difficult for cars to see past (an issue given the nearby turning into Crystal Palace Station).
Given the layout of the road at the new site, it might be worth trying to get some kind of undertaking from Tesco to deliver supplies in a medium sized truck, rather than a huge lorry, and outside rush hour.
When the new shop opening up at Crystal Palace, the huge articulated truck turned up early in the morning, made loads of noise when it unloaded, and occupied the space outside the shop for a fairly long time during the start of rush hour. It didn't actually block the road, but it was difficult for cars to see past (an issue given the nearby turning into Crystal Palace Station).
Given the layout of the road at the new site, it might be worth trying to get some kind of undertaking from Tesco to deliver supplies in a medium sized truck, rather than a huge lorry, and outside rush hour.
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Muddy Waters
- Posts: 137
- Joined: 2 Oct 2004 17:05
Agree with dickp.
Problem is finding legal planning arguments against in-centre proposals for retail units.
Applications for planning permission are submitted after discussion with local planning officers as one would expect agents for Tesco to have done.
I cant, personally, think of a plannng reason why this should not go ahead. If there is anyone with a good argument against, please let us know, and we can rally to the cause.
I, personally, dont like the small guys beaten by the big - so I am on the side of Ram - but please show me the planning arguments to fight this one and I'll happily take up swords!
See the result of Bell Green - big hypermarket, welcomed and used by the many with bus routes changed to assist business. Result - local retailers stuck with long leases and no trade to pay the landlords (inc Lewisham Council which granted permission in the first place)
Problem is finding legal planning arguments against in-centre proposals for retail units.
Applications for planning permission are submitted after discussion with local planning officers as one would expect agents for Tesco to have done.
I cant, personally, think of a plannng reason why this should not go ahead. If there is anyone with a good argument against, please let us know, and we can rally to the cause.
I, personally, dont like the small guys beaten by the big - so I am on the side of Ram - but please show me the planning arguments to fight this one and I'll happily take up swords!
See the result of Bell Green - big hypermarket, welcomed and used by the many with bus routes changed to assist business. Result - local retailers stuck with long leases and no trade to pay the landlords (inc Lewisham Council which granted permission in the first place)
I live opposite Kirkdale learning centre and every week once or twice a week i have a large Nisa lorry then another smaller Nisa lorry unload in front of my property, i do not like it but i have learnt to deal with it, that will be the same case with Tesco (but atleast Tesco will have it's own loading bay and locals will not have the problem of a Tesco lorry parking anywhere.
But on the whole i support the Tesco store as regeneation is what we NEED up here but others in Sydenham fail to see the high prices in the local area do not attract buisness and anyway is anything fresh in Costcutter or Londis or Ram except the bread and milk, i think not. I and many residents want a local shop to get fresh produce without having to go to Sydenham, Bell Green, Penge, Crystal Palace or Forest Hill.
But on the whole i support the Tesco store as regeneation is what we NEED up here but others in Sydenham fail to see the high prices in the local area do not attract buisness and anyway is anything fresh in Costcutter or Londis or Ram except the bread and milk, i think not. I and many residents want a local shop to get fresh produce without having to go to Sydenham, Bell Green, Penge, Crystal Palace or Forest Hill.
Does anyone know whether property owners have any recourse to compensation when a unit's designated use is changed in this way? I'm thinking due to the potential drop in property value associated with having Tesco deliveries happening at 7am on a Sunday outside your window.
Long shot I know, so am more curious than actually expecting this to have an impact on the decision
Long shot I know, so am more curious than actually expecting this to have an impact on the decision
Good point - personally if I need to do a "top-up" shop in between the weekly "big" shop, then it's usually the Sainsburys or M&S near work which gets my trade, mostly because they (by virtue of the size of their supply networks) can stock a bigger variety of fresh produce. If I want some chicken thighs and a punnet of peaches, I know I'm not likely to get that in a local shop.Gaz wrote:I know that I'm not wholly representative of those in the Kirkdale area, but for me personally, by having a Tesco Express there would mean I merely take my trade away from the Tesco Express nearby where I work and transfer it closer to home
I'd definitely find it convenient to do that "top-up" shop in a local Tesco Express, and if other local shops can offer goods/services that complement what Tesco might provide, then I'd be likely to shop there too. For example, if I venture to Somerfield, often as not I'll stop in on the Turkish shop for herbs, greengrocers for fruit and Wellbeing for wholesome goodies - whereas if Somerfield weren't there, it wouldn't be worth the trip.
We are going to be faced with more decisions about national retail chains coming into the high street in the future.
Are we really going to run a campaign against each new shop that opens along the lines that we don't want it because it will introduce more competition? If a Waitrose were to open in Sydenham High Street, would we oppose it because some other food retailers would shut down?
Complain about "out of town" stores by all means or inappropriate developments such fast food stores or betting shops. But wanting to oppose a planning application for a new business because it will introduce more competition is not sensible. Business is all about competition - and competition will ensure that our High Street continues to exist as a viable entity.
I run a business. But I don't demand that that no-one else opens up a similar business in competition to me.
Folks - Dickp and Muddy Waters are correct - there really aren't any solid planning objections I have heard which will prevent this new store. And I can see no logical or strategic reasons why anyone should wish to prevent this new business from coming to Sydenham.
Are we really going to run a campaign against each new shop that opens along the lines that we don't want it because it will introduce more competition? If a Waitrose were to open in Sydenham High Street, would we oppose it because some other food retailers would shut down?
Complain about "out of town" stores by all means or inappropriate developments such fast food stores or betting shops. But wanting to oppose a planning application for a new business because it will introduce more competition is not sensible. Business is all about competition - and competition will ensure that our High Street continues to exist as a viable entity.
I run a business. But I don't demand that that no-one else opens up a similar business in competition to me.
Folks - Dickp and Muddy Waters are correct - there really aren't any solid planning objections I have heard which will prevent this new store. And I can see no logical or strategic reasons why anyone should wish to prevent this new business from coming to Sydenham.
I'm inclined to think you're right nasaroc and others, it is unlikely that this won't be approved despite any arguments against.
My real remaining concerns are around the opening hours - do they really need to be open 7am-11pm 7 days a week? And deliveries - not only noise, but blocking traffic and/or the footpath. I'd like to see justification of the opening hours and a plan for managing deliveries (truck size, timings, frequency, etc) with a view to getting reasonable caveats imposed on Tesco - any ideas how possible this is anyone?
Assuming it goes ahead, I'll be making an effort to keep using Rams as I currently do for bread, milk, etc, and only using Tesco for products that I can't get from Rams (if at all).
I'd imagine I'll still be using Sainsburys in Forest Hill for the bulk of my shopping, especially if the standard of this Tesco is as poor as the Tesco Express near my work.. they have an incredibly limited selection.
My real remaining concerns are around the opening hours - do they really need to be open 7am-11pm 7 days a week? And deliveries - not only noise, but blocking traffic and/or the footpath. I'd like to see justification of the opening hours and a plan for managing deliveries (truck size, timings, frequency, etc) with a view to getting reasonable caveats imposed on Tesco - any ideas how possible this is anyone?
Assuming it goes ahead, I'll be making an effort to keep using Rams as I currently do for bread, milk, etc, and only using Tesco for products that I can't get from Rams (if at all).
I'd imagine I'll still be using Sainsburys in Forest Hill for the bulk of my shopping, especially if the standard of this Tesco is as poor as the Tesco Express near my work.. they have an incredibly limited selection.
Yes! For those wanting to pop in to get sandwiches on the way to work (either those that work locally or those on the way to the station etc) and for those who work until late in the evening and so only get home around 10pm most nights!natbeuk wrote:My real remaining concerns are around the opening hours - do they really need to be open 7am-11pm 7 days a week?
There are details on their submitted plans about delivery times and frequency during the week. Good point about truck size - Forest Hill residents behind Sainsburys are experiencing similar issues.natbeuk wrote:And deliveries - not only noise, but blocking traffic and/or the footpath. I'd like to see justification of the opening hours and a plan for managing deliveries (truck size, timings, frequency, etc) with a view to getting reasonable caveats imposed on Tesco - any ideas how possible this is anyone?
Totally agree with above. I, however, find it difficult to get to/fro Sainsbury (and Morrisons) in the evenings and so don't shop there regularly - to the point that I'm considering getting internet delivery for my groceries!natbeuk wrote:Assuming it goes ahead, I'll be making an effort to keep using Rams as I currently do for bread, milk, etc, and only using Tesco for products that I can't get from Rams (if at all).
I'd imagine I'll still be using Sainsburys in Forest Hill for the bulk of my shopping, especially if the standard of this Tesco is as poor as the Tesco Express near my work.. they have an incredibly limited selection.
Ah yes, I've found delivery details - they plan to have 4 deliveries per day, 7 days a week, including 1 delivery as early as 6am every day.... 6am!!!!!! And they say this will have no effect on residents as Kirkdale is a busy road. Yes it is a busy road, but not at 6am and not with trucks unloading right outside people's windows 
Natbeuk - you have raised two issues - opening hours and deliveries.
Costcutters just across the road have long opening hours. And they have deliveries. Should we close them down? Should we prevent newspaper shops in this area having deliveries at 5am in the morning?
What you have to show to the planning authority is that Tesco opening hours and deliveries are very much different or disadvantageous than those enjoyed by any other store in the high street - and frankly, they aren't.
At the end of February 2008, there were 827 Tesco Express stores in the UK. All of them have opening hours and deliveries similar to the one planned in Kirkdale. If they were breaking planning laws they would have been shut down long before now.
Costcutters just across the road have long opening hours. And they have deliveries. Should we close them down? Should we prevent newspaper shops in this area having deliveries at 5am in the morning?
What you have to show to the planning authority is that Tesco opening hours and deliveries are very much different or disadvantageous than those enjoyed by any other store in the high street - and frankly, they aren't.
At the end of February 2008, there were 827 Tesco Express stores in the UK. All of them have opening hours and deliveries similar to the one planned in Kirkdale. If they were breaking planning laws they would have been shut down long before now.
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catscratch
- Posts: 83
- Joined: 13 Jul 2008 12:44
- Location: se20
Tesco PLC is a steamroller, it will get its way and do what ever it wants.
The only solution is never ever to use them, lack of profit is the only thing they understand.
More than enough has been written elsewhere about the business tactics and shady dealings of this dodgy company. Look it up.
I fear its down to the likes of sad old grumps like me to go on boycotting them, it makes little difference I fear, but it matters to me that I do.
The only solution is never ever to use them, lack of profit is the only thing they understand.
More than enough has been written elsewhere about the business tactics and shady dealings of this dodgy company. Look it up.
I fear its down to the likes of sad old grumps like me to go on boycotting them, it makes little difference I fear, but it matters to me that I do.
If i had my way i would get rid of all the £1 shops ,mobile phone shop,odd computer shops etc etc in the high street and have a great big Tesco/Sainsburys put in their place, Having worked in many small local shops over the years with their rip off prices and off food, i'm fed up with all the rubbish about saving the local shops when a lot of them don't deserve the loyalty of the people who frequent them, ok there are one or two exceptions The Ghurkas ,peters (paper shop) kirkdale books the health shop and shoe repair shop are the only ones i would bother to save
Nasaroc, I know you are completely right. In 24 hours I have gone from supporting the proposal, to opposing it, to being somewhere in between but with a sense of indignation that, as Catscratch says, it is inevitable that regardless of my, or anyone else's opinion, Tesco will be here.
Anyway, I've posted FAR too many times on this and you're no doubt all sick of reading my ramblings so I will endeavour to shut up (can't promise anything though)
Anyway, I've posted FAR too many times on this and you're no doubt all sick of reading my ramblings so I will endeavour to shut up (can't promise anything though)
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welsh girl
- Posts: 7
- Joined: 18 Sep 2006 13:25
- Location: London
Agree completely with Annie. Let's face it, most of our independent local shops are crap. A Tesco in the area could be just the wake-up call they need.
This might even mean I can buy a pint of milk from the Payless without it having gone off in less than a day.
I'm all for friendliness in local businesses, but not at the cost of the quality and value of the products.
This might even mean I can buy a pint of milk from the Payless without it having gone off in less than a day.
I'm all for friendliness in local businesses, but not at the cost of the quality and value of the products.