Deal to forward fund £60m Sydenham retail park collapses

[Rachael]

Another plug for Mastercutters - they really are very good, especially Scott. And they are excellent with kids, too.

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[Rachael]

I was very disappointed with the cake shop aka slatters recently. I needed to buy a cake for a Big birthday and thought how lucky I was to live near such a great shop and that I'd be spoilt for choice. No joy. Seems you can only get a birthday cake there if you've pre-ordered. My options were the coop or drive to sainsburys or bake.

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To be fair to Slatters, that's how independent bakers operate. They can't afford to make birthday cakes on the off chance that someone will want one that day. All their goods are fresh and sold same day, because they are not chock full of preservatives like the cakes in the supermarkets.

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[Annie.]

I must say though that the haircuts are great. When I first moved back to sydenham I was too nervous to try the high street. I tried nicky clarkes, john frieda - all with directors. None of them were a patch on Scott at mastercutters, who's a fraction of the price.

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What I meant was if you want a hair cut then Sydenham is good but if you want most other things then its rubbish.

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[poppy]

RodTaylor, there are lots of people around during the day in Sydenham that would use quality shops. They are just not visible because there are not enough on the high street to attract them there in the first place!

Stay at home mums and dads or part-time parents would love to have a decent shoe shop, some clothes shops, toy shops, gift shops, decent delis etc to shop at and cafes which are a bit more accommodating of children and buggies (the ones we have just don't have enough floor space or have badly designed tables and cutlery which make feeding children difficult, or menus which are not quite right or are a bit too expensive (Blue Mountain), which makes hanging out at them for any period of time a no, no. Crystal Palace Park cafe (although lacking in ambience) has almost got it right now, good selection of food at a really good price (although portions for kids are a bit too enormous!)

A pleasant tree-lined high street to walk along to begin with would make all the difference. It looks a mess, there is little greenery (needs over 100 trees at least, not the eight or ten in the Tfl plan) and crossings need to be less dangerous (don't get me started on trying to cross Newlands Park) to make going to the high street a pleasure, as it is, it just seems like a chore.

[Annie.]

I agree with you poppy,I cannot believe we have so many " same" shops competing for the same customers,its all so boring! I could name on one hand the only shops I have ever bothered to venture into, Kirkdale books, health food shop, superdrugs, musti's,world of hair, I used to use Paulros when kids were at school,also Chefs delight. But thats it, on very rare occasions I might go to the Golden Lion.
Boring boring boring!

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[Rachael]

Where do all the stay-at-home mums go? Er, East Dulwich. Or Beckenham, or Crystal Palace. They get in their cars and drive there because there's nothing for them on Sydenham Road.

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[marymck]

Speaking just for myself: I don't use the High Street as much as I would like to because I don't have a bus that goes there. I only have the 356 bus - that can take me to Forest Hill or Bell Green Sainsburys, but not Sydenham High Street.

Before I get shot down in flames and told I should walk, I'd like to say in my defence that if I have got lots and lots of time I do walk there. But in reality I only do it at most a couple of times a month and only if my gammy knee is behaving well - even then I can't buy much because of schlepping back up the hill.

I tend to do my big food shop when I go to the bank. My bank's in Beckenham - so I'll combine that with a trip to M&S when the £10 meal deals are on. M&S has a reputation for being expensive, but because I only buy things that are on offer I find it's cheaper for me to shop there than anywhere else (for anything other than washing machine type stuff.)

Again, for myself, coffee shops are not much use to me because I don't have the time or money to frequent them very often.

That said, whenever I am in the High Street I always peer in the window of Chef's Delight (looking to see if my uncle's in there, and I'll join him if he is). That place is very economic and friendly. I really like it, but I can't see many of the Dulwich mums liking it.

[Annie.]

I used to love Chefs Delight,always friendly,good service,good food,I used to go in there 2-3 times a week,but now because the street is so drab,I havent ventured in there for a good couple of years,shame.
As for a tree lined high street,I would love it,as for baskets on the lamposts,I would love them too,sorry Lee,but I think greenary/flowers do help cheer a place up and im all for it. As or the drabness ? I think LBL should make the shop owners clean up their act! (It should be a stipulation of their leases). Have some pride in their shops, im sure it would pay for them in the long run.why should we have to put up with it? How much is a tin of paint and a broom?.

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[poppy]

Lordship Lane has absolutely tonnes of trees, I counted them once. I think between 50-100. Beckenham high street also has a lots of planting. Architecture and trees go hand in hand in my opinion. They don't have to be enormous trees, they can be kept small so you can still see the lovely architecture above. They need only be a couple of stories high if that, maybe as tall as the shop fronts themselves, which are rarely anything special. They would provide shade, soften the look of the high street and help with noise and traffic pollution.

A house for example on a tree-lined street is known to command a higher price than one which does not....

I know Lee Newham has tried to get this off the ground in Sydenham but I was driving along the Kings Road yesterday and there was a massive empty shop. In the window there were attractive stickers covering all the glass advertising the shop for rent with minimum wording saying something like "Endless possibilities" and silhouettes of ladies' boots etc. Looked really good. I am not sure who is responsible for this, weather it is a council-funded thing, but maybe the Mary Portas bid could be used for something like this, I can't imagine this would be too expensive.

[poppy]

Lordship Lane has absolutely tonnes of trees, I counted them once. I think between 50-100. Beckenham high street also has a lots of planting. Architecture and trees go hand in hand in my opinion. They don't have to be enormous trees, they can be kept small so you can still see the lovely architecture above. They need only be a couple of stories high if that, maybe as tall as the shop fronts themselves, which are rarely anything special. They would provide shade, soften the look of the high street and help with noise and traffic pollution.

A house for example on a tree-lined street is known to command a higher price than one which does not....

I know Lee Newham has tried to get this off the ground in Sydenham but I was driving along the Kings Road yesterday and there was a massive empty shop. In the window there were attractive stickers covering all the glass advertising the shop for rent with minimum wording saying something like "Endless possibilities" and silhouettes of ladies' boots etc. Looked really good. I am not sure who is responsible for this, weather it is a council-funded thing, but maybe the Mary Portas bid could be used for something like this, I can't imagine this would be too expensive.

[poppy]

Lordship Lane has absolutely tonnes of trees, I counted them once. I think between 50-100. Beckenham high street also has a lots of planting. Architecture and trees go hand in hand in my opinion. They don't have to be enormous trees, they can be kept small so you can still see the lovely architecture above. They need only be a couple of stories high if that, maybe as tall as the shop fronts themselves, which are rarely anything special. They would provide shade, soften the look of the high street and help with noise and traffic pollution.

A house for example on a tree-lined street is known to command a higher price than one which does not....

I know Lee Newham has tried to get this off the ground in Sydenham but I was driving along the Kings Road yesterday and there was a massive empty shop. In the window there were attractive stickers covering all the glass advertising the shop for rent with minimum wording saying something like "Endless possibilities" and silhouettes of ladies' boots etc. Looked really good. I am not sure who is responsible for this, weather it is a council-funded thing, but maybe the Mary Portas bid could be used for something like this, I can't imagine this would be too expensive.

[leenewham]

For estate agents it's a lot more than the £25 it costs to put up and take down an estate agents sign Poppy, unfortunately (we are talking high hundreds for the shop you are talking about, I know it, I've passed it a few times).

But yes, this sort of thing may happen here…

[Tim Lund]

I think greenery/flowers do help cheer a place up and im all for it. As or the drabness ? I think LBL should make the shop owners clean up their act! (It should be a stipulation of their leases). Have some pride in their shops, im sure it would pay for them in the long run

The problem is that LBL aren't actually involved in setting the terms for leases - it's the commercial landlords and their agents. The new Town Team which is to be set up thanks to the the successful Portas Pilot bid will only succeed if it can get these market forces working for the High Street. It's not impossible - as Poppy says, there are successful High Streets around, and Sydenham Road is always going to have good footfall.

The question is whether the new Town Team, in which LBL will play a central role, will be more successful than LBL and its partners have been hitherto. With the new blood being brought in, it may well be, but it will need to understand the economics of the commercial property just as much as have Lee's design flair.

To make a start, I've just been doing some research on commercial retail yields, focusing on the premium which investors will pay for retail freeholders where they think there is a chance of being able to convert the property to something more profitable - e.g. housing. This is hardly a thoroughly researched bit of work, but it looks as if the yield on retail freeholds where there is no chance of retail conversion is about 7.5%. In contrast, the price of £150,000being asked for the freehold of 291 Sydenham Road implies a much lower yield. There isn't a directly comparable rental being asked, but the amount asked for the much more attractive location of 250 Kirkdale, £9,500, implies a yield far lower than 7.5% - in other words, there is a substantial premium in the £150,000 price asked for 291 Sydenham Road to reflect the likelihood that it will in due course become residential.

Such considerations mean that the Town Team, in their efforts to revitalise our High Street, will have to identify commercial landlords who believe that they have more to gain from the new team's efforts than from conversion to residential. This must start from doing more detailed analyses along the lines of the previous paragraph, and identifying the likely winners (a bit like Team GB's long term strategy for medals ...). In geographical terms, it is likely to amount to identifying core areas, e.g around Sydenham Station, Forest Hill and Kirkdale Village, and starting the necessary dialogue with the commercial landlords and their agents.

It will not be easy; these will be hard headed business men and women, who know very well that local authorities have housing targets to meet - that's why they are paying those premiums for freeholds. To make any progress, LBL will have to support the new Town Team by re-emphasising its planning policies to favour retail uses. LBL may also need to concede on planning policies seen by businesses as undermining retail profitability, e.g. the conservation area rules. Currently I believe the Lewisham Local Development Framework gives a higher degree of protection to Sydenham Road above the junction with Mayow Road than below, which is broadly sensible, but as with the conservation area regulations, it may need to be revisited.

To repeat - none of this is going to be easy. I too would like to see more trees, but just saying what we'd like on this Forum will not get us very far. Let's hope the new Town Team can do better.

[Annie.]

The fact that its being talked about on here must bring it out into the open? I cant do anything to help change the Highstreet other than to say what I would like to see,thats one of the problems with the highstreet, no one listens to what potential customers want,thats why its in the mess it is.

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[Robin Orton]

I cant do anything to help change the Highstreet other than to say what I would like to see,thats one of the problems with the highstreet, no one listens to what potential customers want,thats why its in the mess it is.

I often wonder what techniques have been developed by market research experts to find out,in a scientific way, 'what potential customers want', in other words how many people would be likely any rate to visit a particular sort of shop if it opened in a particular location. (Whether they then actually bought anything would, I suppose, depend on other factors such as price, quality, presentation, service etc.) Would just asking a cross-section of the local (however that might be defined) population whether they would use it produce useful results? Or is it better (and cheaper?) just to look at what existing shops of a similar kind there are in the area and at any existing data on local demography, transport links etc? In any case, do small shopkeepers typically do any systematic market research before they decide whether or not to open their new nail bar, Italian restaurant, pound shop etc - or do they just rely on their instincts?

[Annie.]

Either way Robin surely when there are several shops selling the same thing it can not be good for them either? They are fighting each other,in the end people just go elsewhere as I do.

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[Robin Orton]

Indeed - that what's I meant when I suggested they'd need to look at what existing shops of a similar kind there were in the area. If there were three nailbars already, they might well decide that it was pointless opening another.

[Annie.]

I wish they would look Robin.

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[Tim Lund]

I often wonder what techniques have been developed by market research experts to find out,in a scientific way, 'what potential customers want', in other words how many people would be likely any rate to visit a particular sort of shop if it opened in a particular location. (Whether they then actually bought anything would, I suppose, depend on other factors such as price, quality, presentation, service etc.)

I wonder too, although I wonder more about how much getting such estimates cost. I'm sure at the high end there are very sophisticated approaches for which specialist consultants can charge large amounts, which will be based on the sorts of data you mention, but probably also include some judgments. For our purposes, it's more interesting to know what the initial numbers such professional retailers will look at and conclude - as they seem to - that we are not worth further thought. Knowing this would be a useful guide to revitalising our High Streets, and relatively cheap.

Would just asking a cross-section of the local (however that might be defined) population whether they would use it produce useful results?

I think such surveys are where retail research gets expensive. Taking time to talk to people, making sure you have the right cross section, and getting people to reveal what they'd really do is highly skilled.

Or is it better (and cheaper?) just to look at what existing shops of a similar kind there are in the area and at any existing data on local demography, transport links etc?

Indeed - and a reason we see clusters, such as of cafes in Forest Hill

In any case, do small shopkeepers typically do any systematic market research before they decide whether or not to open their new nail bar, Italian restaurant, pound shop etc - or do they just rely on their instincts?

Some small shops may try to do some systematic research, but their budgets will be limited. Many I suspect will be more or less deluded - which you could call following instincts, or just dreams - so although they think they've done some research, they will have focused on facts that are encouraging.

I think the right starting point for High Street revitalisation is to understand those shops which do seem to thrive, to see what lessons can be learned from what they are doing already, and engage in discussions about what changes in general policies for the High Street would help them. Hopefully this is what the new Town Team will be doing.

[leenewham]

I suggested the market research as a pack to give out to potential investors before on this forum, with local demographics, ideas for what people want, footfall etc.

I totally agree that there should be some market research to find out what shops we need.

But don't ask what they want. When I worked on the branding for Fresh & Easy in the States (Tesco) we were shown hours of video of these Americans talking about how they wanted to eat healthily, how they were into world food, spices, organic etc. They followed families for months, looked in their cupboards etc. Thing was, they were all rather large! Clearly they didn't do what they said they did or bought what they said they wanted. They didn't look in the freezers or their garages.

I'd say that nearly all small businesses don't do market research before opening a shop (we have worked with a lot of shops now). They often live miles away and as such only have an interest in their business rather than their street and local community. Which is one reason why the traders need to be involved in the high street more as a collective unit.

When a traders moves into an area they tend to generally do one of the following:

• Carry on as before (Take over an existing shop, often not even changing the name).
• Follow what other shops have done (Chicken shops do well, there are are Iots here).
• Follow the dream (someone always wanted a deli, restaurant, funky clothes or furniture shop etc).
• Follow the family (family restaurant, family butchers etc, carry on what the family started, especially relevant in ethnic businesses where families stay together.)
• Expand from small beginnings (Market stalls often end up as shops in the same area which is why markets are important for a local economy.)

They either already live in the area and open locally. Some look for empty premises anywhere within commuting distance. Some may be looking to expand their business from other areas.

Sometimes having lots of similar businesses is a good thing. Crystal Palace has lots of retro shops on Church Street which increases footfall to the whole area and makes it a bit of a destination. What doesn't work is having lots of similar businesses that all high streets have.