Chazza - I sympathise, and although my personal rant about what New Labour did wrong has some different emphases, the debt burden would be similarly central. I spent yesterday in an office with economists in a state of shock as they watched Greece implode, having two years before seen the sub prime mortgage market do the same - with similar risks.
How do you get politicians to act responsibly? It's a big ask, when many ordinary people are just as ready to load themselves up with debt. If you worry too much about financial probity, there is a danger of being marginalised. On another thread I mentioned Marta Andreasen, our UKIP MEP, who clearly cannot let go of the issue of dodgy EU accounting. A personal friend of mine might be thought another such person, Prof Allyson Pollock. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allyson_Pollock Politically she is on the left, and it's the outrageousness of PFI accounting that she cannot let go of, so has had the pleasure of New Labour spin turned on her, with contributions from our own MP.
Have you made up you're mind yet?
-
digime2007
- Posts: 258
- Joined: 10 Sep 2007 18:26
- Location: Sydenhham
Blimey, Town Hustings has been quieter than the Bird in Hand on a Monday night for weeks and all of a sudden things kick off!
I don't want to add too much to the opinions raised here but here's a couple of links to lists of Labour achievements:
http://www.derekwyattmp.co.uk/news_item ... eID=144751
http://www.paultruswell.org.uk/index.ph ... hievements
I'm sure people would take issue with some of these. In fact, I'd take issue with some of them but it's still pretty clear to me that claims that Labour haven't looked after ordinary people is just wrong.
Besides, we are where we are and the decision to be made is who is best placed to take us forward. The finances are a mess but who will pay, how much, and in what way? Can you really trust a Tory to make these decisions? I shiver at the thought of it.
I don't want to add too much to the opinions raised here but here's a couple of links to lists of Labour achievements:
http://www.derekwyattmp.co.uk/news_item ... eID=144751
http://www.paultruswell.org.uk/index.ph ... hievements
I'm sure people would take issue with some of these. In fact, I'd take issue with some of them but it's still pretty clear to me that claims that Labour haven't looked after ordinary people is just wrong.
Besides, we are where we are and the decision to be made is who is best placed to take us forward. The finances are a mess but who will pay, how much, and in what way? Can you really trust a Tory to make these decisions? I shiver at the thought of it.
-
CaptainCarCrash
- Posts: 2852
- Joined: 23 Jun 2009 20:04
- Location: Even further than before
I never said they have not looked after ordinary people, it is my opinion that the time has come for a change .digime2007 wrote:Blimey, Town Hustings has been quieter than the Bird in Hand on a Monday night for weeks and all of a sudden things kick off!
I don't want to add too much to the opinions raised here but here's a couple of links to lists of Labour achievements:
http://www.derekwyattmp.co.uk/news_item ... eID=144751
http://www.paultruswell.org.uk/index.ph ... hievements
I'm sure people would take issue with some of these. In fact, I'd take issue with some of them but it's still pretty clear to me that claims that Labour haven't looked after ordinary people is just wrong.
Besides, we are where we are and the decision to be made is who is best placed to take us forward. The finances are a mess but who will pay, how much, and in what way? Can you really trust a Tory to make these decisions? I shiver at the thought of it.
I was never convinced that Gordon Clown has given this country a fair representation on the world stage, his job was handed to him on a platter by default he was never elected.
They have failed on issues such as housing and their open door policy on immigration is saturating this country.
The expense fiddle was enough to make a person turn their back on politics here full stop.
He claims to be one of the great world economists but he sold our gold reserves at a knockdown price costing this country £6 billion when it was at an all time low, shows to me that he is a panic man, everybody knows you go long on commodities that are at an all time low yet his blunder went through unchallenged.
Whereas of course George Osbourne would've used his crystal ball to see into the future. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.mikecg wrote:
He claims to be one of the great world economists but he sold our gold reserves at a knockdown price costing this country £6 billion when it was at an all time low, shows to me that he is a panic man, everybody knows you go long on commodities that are at an all time low yet his blunder went through unchallenged.
-
CaptainCarCrash
- Posts: 2852
- Joined: 23 Jun 2009 20:04
- Location: Even further than before
You don't need hindsight Juwlz it's basic economics.Juwlz wrote:Whereas of course George Osbourne would've used his crystal ball to see into the future. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.mikecg wrote:
He claims to be one of the great world economists but he sold our gold reserves at a knockdown price costing this country £6 billion when it was at an all time low, shows to me that he is a panic man, everybody knows you go long on commodities that are at an all time low yet his blunder went through unchallenged.
They seem to be targeting the poorest people what with abolishing the 10p in the pound tax for the poorest families they arn't exactly helping anybody in real need.
What does a person need to be earning to afford to buy their own home?
Ordinary people don't come from privileged backgrounds where a degree education is their birth right.
This country has gone to rat shite in many ways and tbh it's time to take stock of the situation and reform is the only way forward for us otherwise we will mirror the drastic action that Greece and other parts of Europe have taken.
What about the failed over expensive NHS IT failure that is years behind schedule?
They have wasted too much money and we are becoming a nanny state we are now the most watched (CCTV) country in the world and for what?
To stop some piss heads having a punchup on a Saturday night.
The list of is endless.
Its great to see a list of Labours acheivements on there on MP's individual web site, no spin there of course ?
How about some independent facts of Labours/Browns actions , to assist the econmomy and " look after the Common people" !
‘Give-to-take-back' tax credits
Created in 1999, reformed in 2000, tax credits have led to millions of low-income families having to pay back the Treasury after over-payment, at the cost of huge financial and emotional strain.
Meanwhile, 40% of workers and families owed tax credits left billions unclaimed in the 2008/9 tax year for fear of being chased for the cash later on
Abolition of the 10p tax rate
"We made two mistakes [in scrapping the 10p tax rate in 2007]," Brown told Radio 4's Today programme. "We didn't cover as well as we should have ...low-paid workers...[or] the 60 to 64-year-olds who didn't get the pensioner's tax allowance."
Accountants calculated abolishing the 10% tax rate, coupled with a withdrawal of tax credits from higher earners, would leave 1.8 million workers earning £6,500 to £15,000 effectively paying a tax rate of up to 70%.
0% corporation tax
In 2002, Brown announced a 0% rate of corporation tax on profits below £10,000 to help small businesses. Overnight, sole traders such as taxi drivers and plumbers transformed themselves into limited companies to take advantage of the new rules.
A Treasury minister later said "the Government did not realise how many people would engage in abusive tax avoidance", despite it being "blindingly obvious" to tax experts. Brown raised the rate from 0% to 19% when he released how much money was being lost
Taxing pension fund dividend payments
Before 1997, dividends issued by Businesses and paid to pension funds were tax-free - that is, the tax could be claimed back via tax credits. Tax relief was scrapped when Labour got in, slashing the amount collected by pension funds by around £5bn a year.
Pension funds have lost around £100bn over the last 12 years as a result.
Flogging the family jewels
In May 1999, Brown had an idea to sell-off more than half of our national gold reserves - a total of 395 tonnes - at a time when the price of gold had slumped after a decade of stagnation.
The family jewels went for an average price of $275 per ounce. On the Forex Gold Index today, the precious metal is trading at $1151.25 an ounce, nearly five times as much.
To be fair to Brown, he invested the money from his badly-timed bullion sale in dollars, euros and yen, which have all done far better than sterling since then - though none as good as gold !
Ignoring widom
In the House of Commons in 2003, an MP at PMQT asked Brown: "Is it not true...the growth of the British economy is sustained by consumer spending pinned against record levels of personal debt, which is secured, if at all, against house prices the Bank of England describes as well above equilibrium level?"
Brown replied: "The Honorable Gentleman has been writing articles in the newspapers, as reflected in his contribution, that spread alarm, without substance, about the state of the economy..."
The rest, as they say, is history.
How about some independent facts of Labours/Browns actions , to assist the econmomy and " look after the Common people" !
‘Give-to-take-back' tax credits
Created in 1999, reformed in 2000, tax credits have led to millions of low-income families having to pay back the Treasury after over-payment, at the cost of huge financial and emotional strain.
Meanwhile, 40% of workers and families owed tax credits left billions unclaimed in the 2008/9 tax year for fear of being chased for the cash later on
Abolition of the 10p tax rate
"We made two mistakes [in scrapping the 10p tax rate in 2007]," Brown told Radio 4's Today programme. "We didn't cover as well as we should have ...low-paid workers...[or] the 60 to 64-year-olds who didn't get the pensioner's tax allowance."
Accountants calculated abolishing the 10% tax rate, coupled with a withdrawal of tax credits from higher earners, would leave 1.8 million workers earning £6,500 to £15,000 effectively paying a tax rate of up to 70%.
0% corporation tax
In 2002, Brown announced a 0% rate of corporation tax on profits below £10,000 to help small businesses. Overnight, sole traders such as taxi drivers and plumbers transformed themselves into limited companies to take advantage of the new rules.
A Treasury minister later said "the Government did not realise how many people would engage in abusive tax avoidance", despite it being "blindingly obvious" to tax experts. Brown raised the rate from 0% to 19% when he released how much money was being lost
Taxing pension fund dividend payments
Before 1997, dividends issued by Businesses and paid to pension funds were tax-free - that is, the tax could be claimed back via tax credits. Tax relief was scrapped when Labour got in, slashing the amount collected by pension funds by around £5bn a year.
Pension funds have lost around £100bn over the last 12 years as a result.
Flogging the family jewels
In May 1999, Brown had an idea to sell-off more than half of our national gold reserves - a total of 395 tonnes - at a time when the price of gold had slumped after a decade of stagnation.
The family jewels went for an average price of $275 per ounce. On the Forex Gold Index today, the precious metal is trading at $1151.25 an ounce, nearly five times as much.
To be fair to Brown, he invested the money from his badly-timed bullion sale in dollars, euros and yen, which have all done far better than sterling since then - though none as good as gold !
Ignoring widom
In the House of Commons in 2003, an MP at PMQT asked Brown: "Is it not true...the growth of the British economy is sustained by consumer spending pinned against record levels of personal debt, which is secured, if at all, against house prices the Bank of England describes as well above equilibrium level?"
Brown replied: "The Honorable Gentleman has been writing articles in the newspapers, as reflected in his contribution, that spread alarm, without substance, about the state of the economy..."
The rest, as they say, is history.
-
digime2007
- Posts: 258
- Joined: 10 Sep 2007 18:26
- Location: Sydenhham
Don't forget that Margaret Thatcher was at the root of the expenses scandal. She basically introduced the rules and procedures (or interpretations of them) as a kind of back door pay rise for MPs. It legitimised the corruption that was to come. For me, that's the true colour of the Tories.
The nanny state thing always makes me laugh. People love a moan about it but then start crying when something bad happens to them.
The NHS IT project has been a nightmare but I don't put the blame at politicians feet. Or at least nothing that can be attributed to Labour ideology or policy.
Labour have done a lot to help people buy their own home. Schemes such as shared equity and part-buy-part-rent have helped a lot.
I do have an issue with the way house prices have been allowed to spiral out of control though. People get angry about politician and banker greed but no one talks about the people making money from property development and renting out second homes bought out of first home equity. That's just as bad if you ask me. Labour didn't take the necessary action there in my view but I also have to say that the way they acted to let it get out of control was very much the approach I would expect from Tories. So my criticism of Labour here is that they behaved too much like the Conservatives - not a reason to vote Conservative!
The nanny state thing always makes me laugh. People love a moan about it but then start crying when something bad happens to them.
The NHS IT project has been a nightmare but I don't put the blame at politicians feet. Or at least nothing that can be attributed to Labour ideology or policy.
Labour have done a lot to help people buy their own home. Schemes such as shared equity and part-buy-part-rent have helped a lot.
I do have an issue with the way house prices have been allowed to spiral out of control though. People get angry about politician and banker greed but no one talks about the people making money from property development and renting out second homes bought out of first home equity. That's just as bad if you ask me. Labour didn't take the necessary action there in my view but I also have to say that the way they acted to let it get out of control was very much the approach I would expect from Tories. So my criticism of Labour here is that they behaved too much like the Conservatives - not a reason to vote Conservative!
-
CaptainCarCrash
- Posts: 2852
- Joined: 23 Jun 2009 20:04
- Location: Even further than before
@Digimi2007
Check out Andy Shaw he was a gungho director that championed the idea of releasing equity to gain substantial financial wealth, it all backfired of course and I loled for ages when I found out. He was telling people that if you're inlaws own their own home get them to release the equity so that you can buy another property, madness really. If I asked my inlaws they would have told me to FOH and I imagine the words "can't you wait until we are dead" being said.
Their like vampires.
Check out Andy Shaw he was a gungho director that championed the idea of releasing equity to gain substantial financial wealth, it all backfired of course and I loled for ages when I found out. He was telling people that if you're inlaws own their own home get them to release the equity so that you can buy another property, madness really. If I asked my inlaws they would have told me to FOH and I imagine the words "can't you wait until we are dead" being said.
Their like vampires.
-
digime2007
- Posts: 258
- Joined: 10 Sep 2007 18:26
- Location: Sydenhham
I was expecting another in Dorian's list of Gordon Brown's tax policy achievements - messing about with capital gains tax. I followed this sort of thing back in the '80s when I was bond fund manager, and thought that under Nigel Lawson it had been learned that creative accountants will always find ways of reclassifying income as capital gains, so unless you have marginal tax rates on them the same - for higher rate tax payers - you're just asking for a whole lot of artificial wheezes to help the rich avoid tax.
In 1999, I think, GB decided he needed to encourage heroic long term investors by introducing a complex new system which mean that after four years, if the investment was packaged appropriately, you paid no tax on the returns. Bingo! I still have the mug with 'Mercury Private Equity' on it produced for my then employer's marketing campaign. And then several years later it all became a terrible scandal how various Private Equity managers - some friends of Gordon - were in effect paying no tax. Well, it's hardly surprising they liked him. Now the system has been amended in some way again, but the details no longer concern me in any way.
I still wonder just how he could have been so stupid - but I suspect it was just that he was taken in by the glamour of the City, combined with seeing anyone who criticised the City as being 'old Labour'.
There are indeed lots of good things New Labour has done, but in an area where I have some expertise, I see mainly incompetence.
In 1999, I think, GB decided he needed to encourage heroic long term investors by introducing a complex new system which mean that after four years, if the investment was packaged appropriately, you paid no tax on the returns. Bingo! I still have the mug with 'Mercury Private Equity' on it produced for my then employer's marketing campaign. And then several years later it all became a terrible scandal how various Private Equity managers - some friends of Gordon - were in effect paying no tax. Well, it's hardly surprising they liked him. Now the system has been amended in some way again, but the details no longer concern me in any way.
I still wonder just how he could have been so stupid - but I suspect it was just that he was taken in by the glamour of the City, combined with seeing anyone who criticised the City as being 'old Labour'.
There are indeed lots of good things New Labour has done, but in an area where I have some expertise, I see mainly incompetence.
-
digime2007
- Posts: 258
- Joined: 10 Sep 2007 18:26
- Location: Sydenhham
Tim - I don't have expertise in that area so I'll take your word for it. I have to say though that introducing a:
sounds like a Tory policy. That's the sort of thing I'd expect them to introduce so is bad policy by intention better or worse than by "incompetence"?new system which means that after four years, if the investment was packaged appropriately, you paid no tax on the returns.
Well all I know is when I went down to the polling booth today in Jews walk it was only half one in the afternoon and there was a queue and only one poxy polling both and people getting agitated, really disorganized ,lord only knows what it was like later on. They did say they had been promised an extra booth! I hope they got it. There were several people in there asking for someone to help them vote, they didn't understand the sheer number of papers, and nobody helping them, I had to help one lady myself but there was little I could do without compromising her voting privacy, I couldn't really help her. A very bad idea to have 3 election papers at once, nobody had a clue what was going on! I ended up shoving all my voting slips in one box I had become that flumoxed myself by the end!
No problems down in Lower Sydenham.
I loved Camerons acceptance speech 'we ran a positive campaign, we had no need to negative points about others'...obviously he didn't see any of his posters.
I know he was busy going up and down the country and there didn't seem to be any windows on his bus, but surely someone must have shown him some images of the 'positive' campaign he was running?
Or does he simply keep saying the same thing over and over again and hope that if he says it enough we will believe him?
Oh well, hung parliament. Lets see if these idiots can actually work together, like most normal people manage to and most other countries seem to.
I loved Camerons acceptance speech 'we ran a positive campaign, we had no need to negative points about others'...obviously he didn't see any of his posters.
I know he was busy going up and down the country and there didn't seem to be any windows on his bus, but surely someone must have shown him some images of the 'positive' campaign he was running?
Or does he simply keep saying the same thing over and over again and hope that if he says it enough we will believe him?
Oh well, hung parliament. Lets see if these idiots can actually work together, like most normal people manage to and most other countries seem to.