Cash free buses

[biscuitman1978]

The vandalsim in buses, before the cameras went in, the scratched panes of glass on the top decks, cost thousands a year per bus.

True, but now we have CCTV, as you point out. Problem largely solved. Conductors on every bus would be great, but it's far more expensive than installing CCTV.

True but you have one pair of eyes per bus rather than one pair of eyes on 64. The problem initially went away but has returned in recent months as the youths have worked out no one is watching the CCTV all the time for that bus. I'll try to find the London Chamber of Commerce report in 1994 or 95 saying how much the lack of conductors had slowed buses and consequently London traffic. IIRC it was about 2.5Billion cost to London over 3 years.

I don't get the sense that vandalism has returned, but I will keep an eye out. On the basis that conductors won't be making a return on the vast majority of routes (except on the new Routemasters, although even they sometimes run without conductors) the key thing is that when drivers inspect buses at the beginning/end of their shifts they report any vandalism so that the culprits can be identified via CCTV, traced and brought to book.

I'd be interested to see the data on boarding times, but it's worth noting that the data you refer to is 1994/95, which is pre-Oyster. Boarding with Oyster is significantly faster than paying cash, so the relevance of the data is questionable.

One further point: it's worth noting that on the new Routemasters the conductors don't leave the rear doors, presumably because they need to ensure that passengers are getting on and off the bus safely. So even when there are conductors they don't venture upstairs to keep an eye on people!

[Manwithaview1]

The vandalsim in buses, before the cameras went in, the scratched panes of glass on the top decks, cost thousands a year per bus.

True, but now we have CCTV, as you point out. Problem largely solved. Conductors on every bus would be great, but it's far more expensive than installing CCTV.

True but you have one pair of eyes per bus rather than one pair of eyes on 64. The problem initially went away but has returned in recent months as the youths have worked out no one is watching the CCTV all the time for that bus. I'll try to find the London Chamber of Commerce report in 1994 or 95 saying how much the lack of conductors had slowed buses and consequently London traffic. IIRC it was about 2.5Billion cost to London over 3 years.

I don't get the sense that vandalism has returned, but I will keep an eye out. On the basis that conductors won't be making a return on the vast majority of routes (except on the new Routemasters, although even they sometimes run without conductors) the key thing is that when drivers inspect buses at the beginning/end of their shifts they report any vandalism so that the culprits can be identified via CCTV, traced and brought to book.

I'd be interested to see the data on boarding times, but it's worth noting that the data you refer to is 1994/95, which is pre-Oyster. Boarding with Oyster is significantly faster than paying cash, so the relevance of the data is questionable.

One further point: it's worth noting that on the new Routemasters the conductors don't leave the rear doors, presumably because they need to ensure that passengers are getting on and off the bus safely. So even when there are conductors they don't venture upstairs to keep an eye on people!

That was the first LT study into life after conductors. Sure Oyster have speeded up the movement of buses but bus stops, which were 'off road' have been moved out into the road so no cars etc can get passed. Obviously the huge increase in bus lanes is also speeding certain roads up but some are still dire, like the Cally Road

[biscuitman1978]

I don't get the sense that vandalism has returned, but I will keep an eye out. On the basis that conductors won't be making a return on the vast majority of routes (except on the new Routemasters, although even they sometimes run without conductors) the key thing is that when drivers inspect buses at the beginning/end of their shifts they report any vandalism so that the culprits can be identified via CCTV, traced and brought to book.

I'd be interested to see the data on boarding times, but it's worth noting that the data you refer to is 1994/95, which is pre-Oyster. Boarding with Oyster is significantly faster than paying cash, so the relevance of the data is questionable.

One further point: it's worth noting that on the new Routemasters the conductors don't leave the rear doors, presumably because they need to ensure that passengers are getting on and off the bus safely. So even when there are conductors they don't venture upstairs to keep an eye on people!

That was the first LT study into life after conductors. Sure Oyster have speeded up the movement of buses but bus stops, which were 'off road' have been moved out into the road so no cars etc can get passed. Obviously the huge increase in bus lanes is also speeding certain roads up but some are still dire, like the Cally Road

I agree - bus lanes, eliminating bus lay-bys and' 'bus boarders' will all have helped to speed up journey times. But surely if we can speed up journeys without conductors that's just a further argument against retaining/reintroducing them?

Anyway, must go - I have a bus to catch!

[Manwithaview1]

I don't get the sense that vandalism has returned, but I will keep an eye out. On the basis that conductors won't be making a return on the vast majority of routes (except on the new Routemasters, although even they sometimes run without conductors) the key thing is that when drivers inspect buses at the beginning/end of their shifts they report any vandalism so that the culprits can be identified via CCTV, traced and brought to book.

I'd be interested to see the data on boarding times, but it's worth noting that the data you refer to is 1994/95, which is pre-Oyster. Boarding with Oyster is significantly faster than paying cash, so the relevance of the data is questionable.

One further point: it's worth noting that on the new Routemasters the conductors don't leave the rear doors, presumably because they need to ensure that passengers are getting on and off the bus safely. So even when there are conductors they don't venture upstairs to keep an eye on people!

That was the first LT study into life after conductors. Sure Oyster have speeded up the movement of buses but bus stops, which were 'off road' have been moved out into the road so no cars etc can get passed. Obviously the huge increase in bus lanes is also speeding certain roads up but some are still dire, like the Cally Road

I agree - bus lanes, eliminating bus lay-bys and' 'bus boarders' will all have helped to speed up journey times. But surely if we can speed up journeys without conductors that's just a further argument against retaining/reintroducing them?

Anyway, must go - I have a bus to catch!

Eliminating bus laybys has increased times as the traffic has to sit behind the bus. Just saying...

[biscuitman1978]

Eliminating bus laybys has increased times as the traffic has to sit behind the bus. Just saying...

Final word from me...

Eliminating bus lay-bys has almost certainly increased journey times for non-bus users, but I have no particular problem with that - it's one way we can encourage people to use public transport rather than the private car and, in addition, bus lay-bys improve accessibility to public transport (see Appendix C of http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/do ... idance.pdf). Moreover, the same research found that the overall cost benefit to bus passengers of removing bus lay-bys outweighs the disbenefits to other road users.

I accept that some other bus services may get 'stuck' in traffic sitting behind another bus at the bus stop, but I suspect that's counteracted to a degree by the reduced time that they then spend at the bus stop. Careful timetabling will also help to ensure that buses aren't stuck in traffic behind other buses.

I'm happy to concede that the extent of the relative advantages and disadvantages will depend on traffic flows and road width at a given site, as the research for TfL points out. Overall, however, I think removing bus lay-bys is a positive move.

[Checkmate]

If you don’t have enough credit on your Oyster card to pay the £1.45 fare or your Bus & Tram Pass or Travelcard has just expired, you can now make one more journey on a bus.

Won't that address the issue?

Wherever there is a boundary, there will be individuals who want to push it.

"Wow, I got a free journey.....what if I 'forget' to top up? Will I get another one? hee hee hee".

Or, more innocently, what about the person who has two get two buses home at 1 in the morning?

[biscuitman1978]

"Wow, I got a free journey.....what if I 'forget' to top up? Will I get another one? hee hee hee".

Tough. You won't get another journey.

Or, more innocently, what about the person who has two get two buses home at 1 in the morning?

You make sure the first bus takes you somewhere you can top-up.

And yes, I appreciate that finding an Oyster Ticket Stop is tougher at 1am than during the day, but if you're someone who is likely to be vulnerable when wandering the streets at night then you really ought to take some responsibility for yourself by (a) getting yourself a contactless debit card or (b) setting up auto top-up on your Oystercard.

[Checkmate]

I would have thought that the people who are going to suffer as a result of the implementation of cashless buses are going to be occasional bus users who are not au fait with things like setting up auto-top-up on their Oyster cards - indeed they may not even have an Oyster card..... they are going to be the kind of people who 99.9% of the time use their cars to get about, but need to catch a bus in an emergency, when their normal means of travel lets them down, when they need to avoid any more hassle, like "you can't pay cash any more, sorry, get off my bus..."

Incidentally, I am playing devil's advocate here, I hardly ever use buses, but I've carried an Oystercard around with me everywhere "just in case" for some years.

Interesting point about auto-top-up on Oystercard..... I'd love to setup auto top up on mine, but last time I looked, to take effect it has to be touched in at a nominated Underground station or tram stop. Not many of those in Sydenham!

[biscuitman1978]

Incidentally, I am playing devil's advocate here, I hardly ever use buses, but I've carried an Oystercard around with me everywhere "just in case" for some years.

Noted!

I would have thought that the people who are going to suffer as a result of the implementation of cashless buses are going to be occasional bus users who are not au fait with things like setting up auto-top-up on their Oyster cards - indeed they may not even have an Oyster card..... they are going to be the kind of people who 99.9% of the time use their cars to get about, but need to catch a bus in an emergency, when their normal means of travel lets them down, when they need to avoid any more hassle, like "you can't pay cash any more, sorry, get off my bus..."

If it's a major emergency you get a taxi; if not you can get an Oystercard from any Oyster Ticket Stop (there are several on the high street in Sydenham), a Tube station, an Overground station or most National Rail stations. Easy.

But in any case, those of us with debit cards will soon have a Contactless payment chips, so the issue won't arise for the vast majority of people.

Interesting point about auto-top-up on Oystercard..... I'd love to setup auto top up on mine, but last time I looked, to take effect it has to be touched in at a nominated Underground station or tram stop. Not many of those in Sydenham!

A London Overground station, such as Sydenham, is fine to start the top-up for the first time. After that the auto-top will work on buses.

[Checkmate]

A London Overground station, such as Sydenham, is fine to start the top-up for the first time. After that the auto-top will work on buses.

Clearly time for me to log on to my online Oyster account you couldn't do it at Overground stations last time i looked!

the vast majority of people

will be fine of course with the new arrangements. My point being that the vast minority, the occasional bus users, will be the ones that aren't.

Progress is progress, I suppose. Mum still sends me a cheque for my birthday even though she has online banking and can do a money transfer. I still fear for the day when we see on the news that a young woman has been murdered whilst roaming the streets looking for a taxi cos she didn't have a contactless payment card to get on a night bus.

[Rachael]

Major cities all over the world have cash-free buses. They manage, so will we.

[biscuitman1978]

the vast majority of people

will be fine of course with the new arrangements. My point being that the vast minority, the occasional bus users, will be the ones that aren't.

But they will. The vast majority of these people will have a debit, credit or charge card, and very soon the vast majority of these cards will have a contactless payment chip. What's the issue?

I still fear for the day when we see on the news that a young woman has been murdered whilst roaming the streets looking for a taxi cos she didn't have a contactless payment card to get on a night bus.

This is nonsense, and I don't say that without giving it serious thought because the scenario you envisage is a serious one.

Here's the solution. Step 1: find busy, well-lit area. Step 2: call TfL approved cab firm and order cab. Step 3: remain in busy, well-lit area and wait for cab. Step 4: get in cab and travel to destination.

[rbmartin]

Regarding contactless debit/credit cards. Those with basic current accounts, those who normally just get a Visa card with no overdraft won't be getting them. This is due to the fact that those cards always have to have a live connection to the bank for transactions. These customers are more likely to be vulnerable and poor in comparison to those who can afford the £20 to set up auto top-up or have an expensive season travelcard, so have to rely on Oyster PAYG.

Contactless cards can be used without live authorisation, so work for paying the bus fare.

[Annie.]

So, having a visa Debit card will be no good?

[Eagle]

Other cities manage perfectly well without cash.

I think people are going over the top in their objections. Calm down .

[Manwithaview1]

So, having a visa Debit card will be no good?

If it a contactless one it will be ok. It must have this symbol on it



However, there is no limit on the daily usage unlike a bus pass, which will stop at £4.40 a day.

[Annie.]

Thank you

[biscuitman1978]

Regarding contactless debit/credit cards. Those with basic current accounts, those who normally just get a Visa card with no overdraft won't be getting them. This is due to the fact that those cards always have to have a live connection to the bank for transactions. These customers are more likely to be vulnerable and poor in comparison to those who can afford the £20 to set up auto top-up or have an expensive season travelcard, so have to rely on Oyster PAYG.

Thanks - I wasn't aware of that. There might be a case for reducing the minimum auto top-up amount for those who might find it difficult to pay £20 without warning.

But much of what I've said still stands. People need to take responsibility. If you have an Oystercard with pay-as-you-go and without auto-top up and you plan to travel at night, make sure - before you travel - that it's topped up with enough credit to get you home. And in any case, as we've already discussed, you're entitled to 'one more journey' before you need to pay, which ought to be enough to get most people home or to a shop which tops up Oyster cards.

[alywin]

The likely scenario is that the bus driver will use his or her discretion and let you on. If you look your age, or thereabouts, he or she will know that your bus journey is likely to be a free one. It's the same for school children. They need their Zip card (the junior version of the Oyster) to prove their entitlement to free bus journeys. If they've lost or forgotten their Zip card, the bus drivers let them on anyway because they are clearly children and entitled to ride for free. Recently my daughter, aged 16, lost her Zip card transferring from one bus to another. She wasn't in uniform and could easily have looked old enough to be a paying customer, but the driver on the next bus she needed to take let her on anyway when she explained the situation.

People should also remember that the buses will also accept payment from contactless debit cards. When your current debit card expires you'll get one of these from your bank.

Rachael, you must live in a kinder area of London than I do! I have so many times seen young people turned off buses because they don't have a valid Zip card or whatever. Unless, of course, they're known repeat offenders.

Also, you say that we'll get contactless debit cards from our banks. When? I'm on my 3rd or 4th contactless card from my bank (personal account), but am still waiting for one from the one which runs my backup account. They don't seem to be in any hurry to issue these cards, and I hear the same from a number of my friends.

[Rachael]

Sorry to hear bus drivers aren't letting on kids with no Zip cards. That's not been our experience in the last five years. Bus drivers in Forest Hill, Sydenham, Crystal Palace and Streatham must be the nice ones! There have been plenty of times my kids have trailed in late because the drivers wouldn't let a bunch of them on. That annoys me, but it's never at night and they always get home eventually.

Someone posted earlier in the thread (I think) that contactless cards are only issued for certain types of account. I'm surprised you're on to your third or fourth - I didn't think they'd been out that long (given that most people get one on replacement of their existing card, which is usually good for a couple of years).